Mad capped plan?

[Weekend_Woodworker]

My wife and I went easy today to look at property we might like to move to having been in our current house for over 20 years.

We have found a barn conversion that was done about 30 years ago. It’s going to be a project if we take it on.

The walls are solid stone and I assume with no cavity in. It looks like some of the plaster is coming loose downstairs which I assume is due to damp. I don’t think it has been lived in for a couple of years.

It currently has oil fired central heating. We were thinking about trying to replace with a ground source heat pump as there is plenty of land. I am aware that air source heat pumps are cheaper but I think less efficient.

What is the best way to keep it warm and dry? Should we aim for underfloor heating? Does the plaster need replacing with lime plaster? Is there a sensible way to insulate the walls on the inside?

Any thoughts and experience grateful recived.

Thanks

Mark

 

[Windows]

Sounds fun. What height on the wall is your suspected damp? And what part of the country?

 

[Mike G]

Buildings can be fixed. You're prepared to put some work in, and some money in, so fixing it isn't going to be the biggest issue. Therefore, look at the house as though it were perfect.......and ask yourself if it suits you. Is it in the right place? Is it the right size? Will you manage the house and grounds in a few years time? And so on. If the answer is "yes, I'd love to live here", then we can look at the actual issues you talk about and arrive at solutions which work for you. But whatever you do, don't jump straight in with making changes until you've lived there through a winter.

 

[AJB Temple]

I've lived in three barn conversions. Make sure you think it is spectacular. Some are over converted - too many small rooms with low ceilings. The best have high vaulted ceilings and natural materials. Carpet in the living room is not a good sign.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Sounds fun. What height on the wall is your suspected damp? And what part of the country?

The damp is at about eye height in one of the walls. The barn is in the south west of England. Definitely fun, so long as it remains affordable.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Buildings can be fixed. You're prepared to put some work in, and some money in, so fixing it isn't going to be the biggest issue. Therefore, look at the house as though it were perfect.......and ask yourself if it suits you. Is it in the right place? Is it the right size? Will you manage the house and grounds in a few years time? And so on. If the answer is "yes, I'd love to live here", then we can look at the actual issues you talk about and arrive at solutions which work for you. But whatever you do, don't jump straight in with making changes until you've lived there through a winter.

Thanks for the sound advice. I had assumed that I wanted to get the heating sorted before the first winter. Would you hold off to see what it is like with what it has got?

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

I've lived in three barn conversions. Make sure you think it is spectacular. Some are over converted - too many small rooms with low ceilings. The best have high vaulted ceilings and natural materials. Carpet in the living room is not a good sign.

I am not sure we are buying it because it is spectacular, more because it is just about affordable and has the space and location we were looking for. Why is carpet a bad sign?

 

[Mike G]

Thanks for the sound advice. I had assumed that I wanted to get the heating sorted before the first winter. Would you hold off to see what it is like with what it has got?

Partly, yes. My experience is that unless you buy a complete wreck and need to work on it immediately, living in it a while almost always leads to a change from people's initial thoughts. I make most of my money from people moving house. They get me in sometimes before they've even bought it, and start talking about alterations and extensions etc.........but almost never did those initial designs end up being what was done. People don't really understand how they are going to use a space until they've been in it a while, and so now, I come and do a survey and talk through options, but caution people not to do anything until they'vev gone through at least a heating season in the house. It's cut down on wasted work enormously.

The impact of trying to install underfloor heating is enormous. It generally involves digging out the existing floors, and excavating to a depth of about a foot, casting a new concrete slab, allowing that to dry (months), installing insulation and the pipework, then screeding. Again, months of drying of the screed before any finishes go down........you could easily be looking at 6 months of devastation downstairs. In my view, it's move-into-a-caravan territory.

 

[AJB Temple]

I am not sure we are buying it because it is spectacular, more because it is just about affordable and has the space and location we were looking for. Why is carpet a bad sign?

Carpets rarely look right in barn conversions. Especially where there are vaulted ceilings. It's a matter of taste of course but either a stone or oak floor looks good. If there is damp in the walls, then I would be wondering about the state of the slab under the carpet.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Partly, yes. My experience is that unless you buy a complete wreck and need to work on it immediately, living in it a while almost always leads to a change from people's initial thoughts. I make most of my money from people moving house. They get me in sometimes before they've even bought it, and start talking about alterations and extensions etc.........but almost never did those initial designs end up being what was done. People don't really understand how they are going to use a space until they've been in it a while, and so now, I come and do a survey and talk through options, but caution people not to do anything until they'vev gone through at least a heating season in the house. It's cut down on wasted work enormously.

The impact of trying to install underfloor heating is enormous. It generally involves digging out the existing floors, and excavating to a depth of about a foot, casting a new concrete slab, allowing that to dry (months), installing insulation and the pipework, then screeding. Again, months of drying of the screed before any finishes go down........you could easily be looking at 6 months of devastation downstairs. In my view, it's move-into-a-caravan territory.

Thanks really good advice. If only you lived closer!

I have seen some low profile underfloor heating on offer such as this:

Underfloor Heating Kits & Equipment

Wet underfloor heating kits to low profile kits, electric kits and more.

underfloorheating1.co.uk

I don’t think we have the money for a caravan to live on site whilst having to wait months for a floor to set.

I think the key to the property will be if we can keep it warm and dry at reasonable cost and ideally from renewables.

 

[Mike G]

Underfloor heating works best by gently heating a floor of high thermal mass. If you don't set it in screed, and you haven't got insulation under it, then I'd be highly sceptical of its chances of working well. It obviously requires a boarded floor of some sort over it, which acts as an insulator. Obviously you'd need to replace all your doors, and remove and replace the kitchen and downstairs WC due to the change in floor level. You'll still need radiators upstairs, as underfloor heating doesn't work with timber suspended floors, no matter what anyone tells you.

I'd start by asking the current owners how much oil they buy a year, and with a look at the EPC.

 

[Windows]

I’m not an expert. I do have a stone house in a wet and cold location.

One of the biggest thermal wins we got was removing some weather strip from a door that prevented the door from closing properly.

We’ve made various simple changes to windows that didn’t close properly with large effect: fixing hinges, improving fit with a chisel. Putting a rug down over a tiled floor made a big difference to perception of cold. Overlaying existing floorboards with 20 mm of oak has made a difference. Insulating the attic was a good choice as you might expect. Changing our behaviour by consistently closing inner doors so that the outer doors are air locked worked well.

Now we’re focusing on windows. Hanging duvets over the windows in the winter may turn out to be a temporary measure now that I’m starting to install secondary glazing, but maybe it’ll evolve to a more permanent solution.

One of the advantages to living in the house is that you will be able to discover the easy wins before committing to the expensive and disruptive changes. Particularly be aware of behaviour: opening and closing doors and curtains to capture/exclude solar energy or increase insulation at night is key; opening windows to exchange your damp air is good for both moisture and heat. Dry air is easier to heat; when you exchange air you might worry about losing heat, but much of the heat you have put into your home has gone into the structure.

The water-related problems we had were fixed by fixing the roof (we chose to do this the expensive way - complete replacement) and lowering the ground level on the outside (very cheap: just used a spade).

For your eye-level damp, I’d be looking at the outside to see if a gutter is blocked. Windows and chimneys are classic areas for leaks, but if it’s an outside wall and not near one of them and there’s no contact from vegetation or earth (it’s not built into a hillside presumably?), gutter seems possible. You can get damp at cold unventilated spots particularly in unoccupied houses, but typically you’d just see mould, not failing plaster. Internal plumbing failures are always a possibility of course, but you can decide on the likelihood of that based on proximity to radiators, sinks, etc. Make sure you visit the property when both heat and water are on.

 

[RogerS]

Heed Mike's words. His advice is always spot on.

When we moved to our new (tiny) place, we thought we'd make the top floor open plan. We'd convert the staircase to a 90 degree turn from its current tortuous 180 degree. We'd block up the door to the downstairs bathroom - accessed from the living room - and open up a new door from the utility room. Gradually all these ideas faded away. The only one that is going to be resurrected is blocking up the bathroom door.

And if you decide to put in a new kitchen then, whatever you do, do NOT buy one from Magnet.

 

[PAC1]

Thanks really good advice. If only you lived closer!

I have seen some low profile underfloor heating on offer such as this:

Underfloor Heating Kits & Equipment

Wet underfloor heating kits to low profile kits, electric kits and more.

underfloorheating1.co.uk

I don’t think we have the money for a caravan to live on site whilst having to wait months for a floor to set.

I think the key to the property will be if we can keep it warm and dry at reasonable cost and ideally from renewables.

I installed such a system in part of my house. It is great. But...
You still need to gut the ground floor as you will add circa 75mm to the floor level in order to install this. Think about what that does to door heights.
In theory it could be done room by room but I would not.
The existing floor as Mike says is going to be a source of heat loss as 25mm of insulation (however good) is not going to stop the loss.
Upstairs stick to radiators. I installed underfloor heating between the joists. Then you put wood floor boards down and carpet. Two good insulators so it is not efficient and airlocks regularly.
I also have just installed a new generation Air Source Heat Pump in my office. The efficiency has increased significantly. It is early days but so far it looks very good.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Heed Mike's words. His advice is always spot on.

When we moved to our new (tiny) place, we thought we'd make the top floor open plan. We'd convert the staircase to a 90 degree turn from its current tortuous 180 degree. We'd block up the door to the downstairs bathroom - accessed from the living room - and open up a new door from the utility room. Gradually all these ideas faded away. The only one that is going to be resurrected is blocking up the bathroom door.

And if you decide to put in a new kitchen then, whatever you do, do NOT buy one from Magnet.

Thanks Roger.
The last kitchen I fitted was from DIY kitchens and based on that experience I would happily go back to them.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

I’m not an expert. I do have a stone house in a wet and cold location.

One of the biggest thermal wins we got was removing some weather strip from a door that prevented the door from closing properly.

We’ve made various simple changes to windows that didn’t close properly with large effect: fixing hinges, improving fit with a chisel. Putting a rug down over a tiled floor made a big difference to perception of cold. Overlaying existing floorboards with 20 mm of oak has made a difference. Insulating the attic was a good choice as you might expect. Changing our behaviour by consistently closing inner doors so that the outer doors are air locked worked well.

Now we’re focusing on windows. Hanging duvets over the windows in the winter may turn out to be a temporary measure now that I’m starting to install secondary glazing, but maybe it’ll evolve to a more permanent solution.

One of the advantages to living in the house is that you will be able to discover the easy wins before committing to the expensive and disruptive changes. Particularly be aware of behaviour: opening and closing doors and curtains to capture/exclude solar energy or increase insulation at night is key; opening windows to exchange your damp air is good for both moisture and heat. Dry air is easier to heat; when you exchange air you might worry about losing heat, but much of the heat you have put into your home has gone into the structure.

The water-related problems we had were fixed by fixing the roof (we chose to do this the expensive way - complete replacement) and lowering the ground level on the outside (very cheap: just used a spade).

For your eye-level damp, I’d be looking at the outside to see if a gutter is blocked. Windows and chimneys are classic areas for leaks, but if it’s an outside wall and not near one of them and there’s no contact from vegetation or earth (it’s not built into a hillside presumably?), gutter seems possible. You can get damp at cold unventilated spots particularly in unoccupied houses, but typically you’d just see mould, not failing plaster. Internal plumbing failures are always a possibility of course, but you can decide on the likelihood of that based on proximity to radiators, sinks, etc. Make sure you visit the property when both heat and water are on.

Thanks for the advice. Definitely some good basic things to do first. The only challenge some times is the sequencing of activities to ensure that work done early isn’t undone later. We certainly suffered a bit of that in our current house.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Underfloor heating works best by gently heating a floor of high thermal mass. If you don't set it in screed, and you haven't got insulation under it, then I'd be highly sceptical of its chances of working well. It obviously requires a boarded floor of some sort over it, which acts as an insulator. Obviously you'd need to replace all your doors, and remove and replace the kitchen and downstairs WC due to the change in floor level. You'll still need radiators upstairs, as underfloor heating doesn't work with timber suspended floors, no matter what anyone tells you.

I'd start by asking the current owners how much oil they buy a year, and with a look at the EPC.

Unfortunately the current owners haven’t lived in the property as it was owned by their parents who have died. I will get the EPC. I guess downstairs we could add some thermal mass by tiling over the underfloor heating, but would need to think about the height issues. I am not too off put by replacing the kitchen and doors. There are some step heights that would need to be looked at.

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

I installed such a system in part of my house. It is great. But...
You still need to gut the ground floor as you will add circa 75mm to the floor level in order to install this. Think about what that does to door heights.
In theory it could be done room by room but I would not.
The existing floor as Mike says is going to be a source of heat loss as 25mm of insulation (however good) is not going to stop the loss.
Upstairs stick to radiators. I installed underfloor heating between the joists. Then you put wood floor boards down and carpet. Two good insulators so it is not efficient and airlocks regularly.
I also have just installed a new generation Air Source Heat Pump in my office. The efficiency has increased significantly. It is early days but so far it looks very good.

Thanks, great to hear first hand experience which is always helpful.