Marking Gauge?

[Woodbloke]

General question here, chaps; what do you use for a marking gauge(s)? I'm currently using Japanese style gauges which are good but have their limits. I also have a pair of Stanley 5061's (a big favourite of the late Sir David of Charlesworth) and a 'Glen Drake' wheel gauge, with which I'm very impressed so I've been looking at others on WH, Ax and CHT with a view to changing at some point. I see that there's a new version of the Veritas adjustable wheel gauge at CHT - Rob

 

[Mike G]

Make your own, Rob, then you can have it any way you want.

 

[Lurker]

I have ten hanging from the workshop ceiling and at least another ten in the loft, some are pins, some are pencils and some are blades. None have been bought, inherited or given to me by friends who know I like old tools.
Don’t like the wheel ones as they seem to to wander, at least in my hands.

 

[Mike G]

.....Don’t like the wheel ones as they seem to to wander, at least in my hands.

I couldn't agree more. I have one, and never use it.

 

[AndyP]

FWIW, and what do I know, although I have a wheeled gauge the only one I use is a no name rosewood type mortice gauge, two pins on one side one on t’other. I never bought it so it must be my grandfathers.

 

[Woodbloke]

.....Don’t like the wheel ones as they seem to to wander, at least in my hands.

I couldn't agree more. I have one, and never use it.

Nope, they don't. If you look at Matt's video on the WH site on the QS gauge, when making the line, you look at the gauge face against the wood, not the cutter. This is to ensure that it doesn't wander; I tried it and it works.

Make your own, Rob, then you can have it any way you want.

I have done Mike; three Japanese ones (the fourth being a proper one from Japan and was a pressie from No.1 daughter, so that's a 'keeper') - Rob

 

[Pete Maddex]

I use a couple of these.

Marking gauges by Pete Maddex, on Flickr

There are several out in the wild I used then as secret santa gifts.

Pete

 

[Mike G]

....Nope, they don't. If you look at Matt's video on the WH site on the QS gauge, when making the line, you look at the gauge face against the wood, not the cutter. This is to ensure that it doesn't wander......

The fundamental flaw of these gauges is that the arm doesn't bear on the surface of the wood. If they did, then it wouldn't matter what you looked at. Yes, you can make them work, but with their tendency to follow the grain, and without a second reference, it requires more concentration than is necessary with a pin-type gauge.

 

[AndyT]

Marking gauges have long been established as one of the tools with the widest range of price points.

That's a good thing. Toolsellers can get as much cash as anyone is willing to pay and buyers can have the pleasure of something very special (exotic materials, patented features) or something very simple.

I've got an assortment across the range, from fancy down to the most basic. There's no direct relationship between price and performance, in my experience.

I've never bothered with the wheel type - I get good results from older styles, with the grain and against it.

 

[thetyreman]

I can highly recommend Bob Rozaieski Fine Woodworking 'How to Make an Improved French Marking Gauge' video that's the one I made, it's my favourite and I want to make more of them.

 

[Dr.Al]

....Nope, they don't. If you look at Matt's video on the WH site on the QS gauge, when making the line, you look at the gauge face against the wood, not the cutter. This is to ensure that it doesn't wander......

The fundamental flaw of these gauges is that the arm doesn't bear on the surface of the wood. If they did, then it wouldn't matter what you looked at. Yes, you can make them work, but with their tendency to follow the grain, and without a second reference, it requires more concentration than is necessary with a pin-type gauge.

I've got a few wheel gauges and some work better than others. The difference seems to be size of the cutting wheel. The ones with the smaller wheels (i.e. the outer diameter of the cutting wheel is not much bigger than the outer diameter of the shank) work really well - probably because the cutting part goes all the way into the wood and the shank runs on the wood.

The ones with the bigger cutting wheels work okay, but need a little more concentration.

With the grain, I much prefer pin type, but I do quite like the wheel ones for across the grain cuts.

Me being me, what I like most is having the choice of lots of different types to experiment with!

 

[Woodbloke]

....Nope, they don't. If you look at Matt's video on the WH site on the QS gauge, when making the line, you look at the gauge face against the wood, not the cutter. This is to ensure that it doesn't wander......

The fundamental flaw of these gauges is that the arm doesn't bear on the surface of the wood. If they did, then it wouldn't matter what you looked at. Yes, you can make them work, but with their tendency to follow the grain, and without a second reference, it requires more concentration than is necessary with a pin-type gauge.

You're right in that the bar doesn't touch the surface of the wood, but it doesn't make a jot of difference as far as I can see. I've just been out to the 'shop and found a scrappy bit of Oak and very quickly marked:



...four lines on it with not the least inclination for the wheel to 'wander'. Bearing in mind that the marking gauge is the most difficult hand tool that I ever had to try and get the kids to master, I'd very 'umbly suggest that you're letting the tool dictate to you rather than the other way round. More concentration needed....3/10 for effort :lol: :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Doug]

For me the wheel gauge is another tool like the Norris adjuster that I’ve never had a problem with, I’ve had the old Veritas wheel gauge donkeys years shown on the right here



I didn’t think I’d ever be bothered with another until a few years ago a friend bought me the new Veritas one on the left with micro adjustment & generally chunkier, I really like it.

 

[Tiresias]

For what it is worth (not very much, probably) I just use the old fashioned, and cheap, beech ones with the double pin on one side, single on the other. Why, I wonder, do they always seem to have amber/yellow fixing screws? To mimic the bone they once may have been made of?

Or if I want a really sharp mark cross grain I use my home made cutting gauge I use my home made one. Whose efficacy I willl defend as a lioness would a wounded cub.



I have also been known to use the edge of a countersunk screw driven into a block of wood.

I have never seen what advantage the wheel-type ones convey. Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

 

[Mike G]

They can cut a cleaner line across grain, particularly in softwood.

 

[Tiresias]

They can cut a cleaner line across grain, particularly in softwood.

Yes, I can see that, but that is what the cutting gauge does too. Or possibly a pin gauge sharpened to a flat on one or both sides, although I've never bothered to try that.

Perhaps I just distrust technological innovation.

 

[Mike G]

......Or possibly a pin gauge sharpened to a flat on one or both sides, although I've never bothered to try that.....

Yes, that's what I do. You should try it. It works nicely.

I don't get on with wheel gauges, as I said, but that is definitely the thing in their favour: cleaner cross-grain lines in softer wood.

 

[Just4fun]

I've got an assortment across the range, from fancy down to the most basic.

I've got an assortment across the range, from the most basic down to the even more basic.
I have one beech gauge with a pin that I inherited. I have a few very crude gauges that I made, with pins, double pins (at fixed spacing to suit the mortices I typically chop) and blades. I have never tried a wheel gauge.

 

[Woodbloke]

For me the wheel gauge is another tool like the Norris adjuster that I’ve never had a problem with, I’ve had the old Veritas wheel gauge donkeys years shown on the right here



I didn’t think I’d ever be bothered with another until a few years ago a friend bought me the new Veritas one on the left with micro adjustment & generally chunkier, I really like it.

Interesting Doug; I saw that and quite liked the look of it - Rob

 

[Glynne]

Like Doug I have both the old and new versions and have never had any problems. I should probably put my “traditional” gauges for sale as they just sit in a drawer never to be used.

 

[Dr.Al]

My little selection




Top-to-bottom, left-to-right: panel gauge, fine-adjust wheel gauge, pin gauge, multi-headed gauge (pin, wheel, bearing wheel, pencil), wheel mortice gauge, pin mortice gauge, blade gauge. The blade gauge is by far the least used.

The wheel mortice gauge is Quangsheng I think; the pin gauge is Marples. The pin mortice gauge says Ace Tools on it. The rest are all unbranded (the fine adjust and multi-head wheel gauges are no-name Chinese ones and the other pin / knife gauges were junk shop finds that didn't have any names on them)

 

[Blackswanwood]

Interesting thread. I use the Veritas wheel gauge and find it to be perfect most of the time for what I need. I am making an oak cupboard at the moment and swapped to using a knife gauge for marking lines with the grain as the wheel gauge had a tendency to wander.

 

[MrH]

Now that's some stunning gauge work Pete!

I have the Veritas wheel gauge with micro adjust. After being used to wooden gauges for so long I found it a culture shock.

I like the Veritas for a fine baseline but that's about it. I found it easier to pull the Veritas whereas I push my wooden gauges.

It hasn't replaced my wooden gauges and I could do without it. One wheel gauge is enough for me!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

 

[Weekend_Woodworker]

Well this thread has reminded me that I have two gauges. The one I always use is a Veritas wheel gauge with the fine adjust. I haven’t noticed a problem with it wandering. My original gauge is a beech one, Draper I think, with twin pins for making tenons. I never found it as good to use as the Veritas one, so having got the Veritas one I tend to stick with it.

 

[rxh]

This one has a hole drilled at 45 degrees through the bar to hold the marking point, which is retained by a grubscrew. The tip can be shaped as required and can be right at the end of the bar.

 

[AndyT]

Here's one recently added to my "selection" of marking gauges. I do agree with Just4Fun, that a few fixed size double pin gauges are a good idea, but in general you don't see so many home made adjustable mortise gauges. This is one, with some protective brass on the stem, which is held in place with what are probably ordinary countersunk screws, filed down flush after insertion. The design avoids the need to cut threads, so could be made with only very basic tools. The wedge looks like it would originally have been properly captive, like the wedges on the arms of a plough plane, but one end has been a bit reduced by being tapped with a hammer over the years. The pins are just ordinary little panel pins, nipped off and filed.



Here it is with the sliding parts of the stem widely separated



The two parts of the stem look like they were sawn from the same piece of wood, before chiselling the mating tongue and groove which keeps them aligned.



From the end, the T&G look dovetailed, but maybe not all the way along



I wonder if I can tempt any of the skilled makers on here to make their own version?

 

[Mike G]

I have done already, Andy. I'll grab some photos in a few minutes.

 

[Mike G]

Here you go. It's my usual mechanism (albeit with plastic plugs rather than brass), which requires a round shaft:

I tongue and grooved rectilinear stock (is it sapele, I can't remember), which was a major challenge with such small sections, then taped them together and turned them carefully down to a dowel.

I always use picture-hook pins for my marking gauge pins, because they're hardened steel.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Mike - close, but with some significant differences - I don't expect I can nudge you towards a Mark 2, with a full-depth tip for the first pin (which makes the T&G part even harder, as it needs to be stopped) plus some brass cladding?

 

[Mike G]

That would be easier than you might think. You'd just remove the pin, glue a short length of the grooved section onto the tongued section, and re-drive the pin. The brass would be impossible with my clamping arrangement, unless it ran the whole length of the shaft.

 

[derekcohen]

I'll play along.

I like both wheel gauges and Japanese knife gauges. The wheel gauge excel when marking the baselines of dovetails. Their strength lies with cutting a thin, sharp line. Their downside is that they have difficulty scoring end grain. The Japanese knife gauges cut deeply and are brilliant with end grain.

On the right is a Kinshiro, the best cutting gauge in the world. Sadly, no longer available, although good copies can be found. Happily, I have two.

On the left is a single cutter version I made. I've made a bunch of these and given a few away as gifts. Better view ...

An advantage of the cutter at the end of the head is that the depth can be set by "dropping" the blade ...

The Kinshiro is so comfortable to hold, and it inspired me to make a mortice cutting gauge in its style, with a difference ...

This has fixed cutters in 1/4", 5/16" and 3/8" which fit into a "cassette" in the head ...

The rounded arm locks down solidly. One rule I have when designing and making gauges is that they need to adjust with one hand.

Titemark and Veritas wheel gauges absolutely rule ...

Here is a wheel gauge I made with a larger fence for extra registration. It uses the adjustable arm from Veritas ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Woodbloke]

I use the Japanese gauges as well and have made three, using offcuts of HSS hacksaw blade for the cutters and they do, as you say Derek, work very well....but, it's very difficult to see the 'start' and 'finish' points of a line, so I've now reverted to a pair of fandabby Stanley 5061's:



...which are alas, no longer made but these were the favourite marking gauges of the late Sir David of Charlesworth. The modification which he advised was to replace the useless pin with a big, hardened steel masonry nail, suitably ground and sharpened:



...to form a cutting edge and it is an edge rather than a point (rubbish pic) Why nobody has bothered to make modern versions is beyond me as they're quite the best wooden gauges I've ever come across. You can sometimes see them on Fleabay, but they're spendy - Rob

 

[Pete Maddex]

I have made them in the past before going over to wedge ones.

DSCF0016 by pete maddex, on Flickr

DSCF0015 by pete maddex, on Flickr

Padauk.

DSCF0012 by pete maddex, on Flickr

Pete

Photos added.

 

[MrH]

I feel ashamed after seeing all these gauges! I'll grab some pics of mine to lower the tone.

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[Pete Maddex]

I feel ashamed after seeing all these gauges! I'll grab some pics of mine to lower the tone.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

We all had to start from nothing and work our way up, don't be afraid of posting your gauges, you made something you didn't just go out and buy one.

Pete

 

[Xlurker]

I was browsing the archives and was fascinated by the variety of the gauges, particularly the home made ones.
So I was encouraged by Pete's "don't be afraid of posting your gauges" message to offer my three pennies worth

I like the round stem for several reasons.
It means that the cutting point is visible at all times as recommended by David Charlesworth.
Both the stem and the stock can be in contact with the workpiece when cutting which I think helps to avoid wandering.
The depth of cut can be adjusted from zero to the maximum blade protrusion by simply rotating the whole gauge slightly
( I start with a quite shallow cut followed by a couple of deeper ones which again helps to avoid wander on funny grain)

The blade, from a Hock marking knife, is clamped by a screwed rod through the stem using the knurled knob at the blunt end.
This makes it very easy to set the maximum cutting depth and to flip the blade around if you want the bevel to be the other way round.

The photo is taken from a strange angle to show all the details in one image.

Cheers everyone

Dave

 

[Dr.Al]

That's got some nice ideas in it. Always interesting seeing different approaches to such things.

 

[Pete Maddex]

Here are some of my wedge ones, just for some more ideas for you.


Marking gauges by Pete Maddex, on Flickr

7th November by Pete Maddex, on Flickr

Pete

 

[Pete Maddex]

Ishitani makes a different wedge one.

Pete

 

[Eric the Viking]

Just a thought on "wheel" gauges: I've a couple of cheap ones, which are my go-tos. I also have a couple of traditional "students'" mortice gauges, which are rarely used, even though I keep the pins sharp.

The wheel gauges get an occasional fettle, rubbing the flat side on a stone to preserve the edge (held down with a fingertip). Having them properly sharp really helps, especially along the grain, and I always mark so the grain is pulling the gauge's fence into the wood - sometimes the other way is unavoidable, and it's definitely awkward. If they do get blunt (the minerals in some hardwoods seem to do this quickly), they're a nightmare to use. The 'wheel' retracts into the fence, so it's protected from damage in the drawer (and my fingers from it).

I don't know how long the 'wheel' design has been in existence, but if it's a Victorian idea, two guesses as to why it wasn't so popular: you have to stop and dismantle it to sharpen it, whereas with a pin it's just a touch with a stone or a small file; pin gauges are much easier to make - no lathe, etc. required. That might well be reflected in the cost, too, and that in turn might have been significant in the take-up.

I really appreciate my wheel gauges, more than the traditional ones, and no, they don't wander if I look after them.