Measuring and marking.

[ScaredyCat]

I've decided to upgrade from of my basic marking and measuring tools. I'd sort of settled on some iGaging stuff from Woodworker's Workshop, not too expensive but a bit better than the 1.99 specials I'd originally got from Amazon.

iGaging EZ Cal Digital Caliper 6"
iGaging Precision Combination Square 300mm/12" Dual Scale
iGaging Precision Double Square 100mm/4" Dual Scale
iGaging MiniMag Digital Height Gauge

but I happened to be watching a Jonathan Katz-Moses video where he talked about squares and combination square where he made a quip about accuracy and iGaging. I have no experience of them but it's thrown me off a bit. Part of me thinks that Woodworker's Workshop wouldn't stock them if they were total cr*p but another part says well, better than Amazon 1.99 stuff. I've also looked at Workshop Heaven but the Starrett stuff is a bit out of my price range (Combination square alone is the total cost of the iGaging stuff) .

I appreciate you don't really like n00b questions like this but I'm still looking for some pointers. Happy to ask at "the other place" if required.

 

[Trevanion]

I’ve never been sure about that Moses’ Cat guy, always seems to be pushing some kind of agenda that earns him cash but maybe I just haven’t watched enough of his stuff to get a good gauge of what he actually is.

I have a Moore and Wright 6” Caliper which is the identical same caliper as the iGaging, it’s a good caliper and definitely a step up from the workzone one I was using before. I’ve never had any issues with it regarding accuracy and I’ve been using it for my metal turning making fairly precise parts. One quibble is that it doesn’t like being cold as the display starts flashing when it’s below 3 degrees or so, but that’s more of an issue with the battery than the caliper I think, warm it up a bit and it works flawlessly.

I can’t comment on the other stuff you’ve bought but I have heard good things about iGaging in general, and Peter Sefton generally doesn’t stock absolute tat and he’s a reputable dealer who stands by what he sells.

There’s never a stupid question! If anything it’s probably more noob friendly here than it is elsewhere. “Elsewhere” seems to have gotten a lot more toxic as of late with the backbiting arguments and political spats having been re-allowed it seems, whilst actual contributors get banned :lol:

 

[Cabinetman]

I was about to have a rant about what on Earth do you need all that for? Then I realised it was for metalworking, different game altogether from us wood manglers. Ian
More toxic over there? Certainly the thought police are more in action, it’s quite good fun winding them up. Not saying anymore as I don’t want to pollute the atmosphere here.

 

[Peri]

We buy decent stuff for our apprentices to use at college.

I have no idea how these compare (either in quality or price) to iGaging gear, but we use a lot of 'Insize" stuff from Cutwel in our metal workshops.

https://www.cutwel.co.uk/measuring-tool ... nstruments

Certainly not top of the range, but also certainly a step up from Amazon basics - might be worth just having a look.

They also do some modestly priced sets of tools such as

 

[novocaine]

Igaging arn't a manufacturer of tools, they are in importer. that means you are buying someone elses tools with yet another middleman whos dependent on the manufacturers QC to give you good products.

the are owned by IPIC who are an American company that resold tools to industry before seeing a chance to sell to the public.

I can't say that I've heard anything bad about them but they are a relative newb to the world at 10 years old and as such haven't really had time to annoy anybody.
what they have managed to do it buy in to youtube and get their products known.

do I think they are better than a lidl special? no not really, the biggest difference is they have the sharp edges knocked off, the internals are pretty much the same.

I also don't like that the accuracy is on marked in " for most of their kit, which at 0.001" for a lot of it, it's acceptable and they claim a similar resolution to M&W and Starrett. There isn't a calibration certificate available for any of them but I'm sure if you asked they'd be able to provide.

they also do the really annoying thing of leaning on the American thing but keep the country of origin pretty well hidden.

to be honest, M&W don't manufacturer anymore either and the name is owned by the bowers group, but this is a good thing to me as they own about 8 different companies supplying measurement products and I know they supply in to industry and are still highly regarded.

for the fixed tooling (squares) they seem to have mixed reviews but so does everybody else unless you are Mitotoyo that is and no one has that sort of money (he say using a very old mit combination square). they are also only sell half the product in my opinion a combination square should have the centre finder and protractor head with them to be of full use (300mm units anyway), the moore and wright set is 70 quid but comes with all of it for the basic set and should be on comparable build if not better. the precision set is more like 200 quid though.

the double square. it's 15 quid, it's cheap, it'll be close enough.

sorry that was a rant. I can't say I have any reason not to buy their stuff if it's at the right price, but I wouldn't expect much better than your aldi special in terms of tolerance. you might get better life expectancy from it.

 

[Woodbloke]

I had a useless digital calliper gauge thingie from Ax; a new battery went flat in a few days :evil: so I treated myself to Mitutoyo which I managed to get as a 'special' Very nice it is too, but not dust proof so it gets stored in it's box in the bench drawer - Rob

 

[Mike G]

........Then I realised it was for metalworking......

Are you sure? I can't see anything which suggests that to me. If it is metalwork, then as you say it's a different matter altogether, but for woodwork, any combination square that is close to square can be adjusted to be bang on. A dial caliper never has a flat battery, is easy to read, and can be re-calibrated in seconds when the temperature changes.

 

[Cabinetman]

........Then I realised it was for metalworking......

Are you sure? I can't see anything which suggests that to me. If it is metalwork, then as you say it's a different matter altogether, but for woodwork, any combination square that is close to square can be adjusted to be bang on. A dial caliper never has a flat battery, is easy to read, and can be re-calibrated in seconds when the temperature changes.

I have three squares of different sizes, I have tested them all and they are as accurate as I’m bothered about. The other things I can’t imagine what I could/would make that needs to be that accurate as a woodworker.
What would you use a dial caliper for Mike? Curious in case I’m missing out on something, I’m not even sure what one is to be perfectly honest.Ian

 

[billw]

The downside for me for a dial caliper is that the accuracy is only as good as your eyesight. Having any sort of decimal accuracy on them is surely wasted?

If iGaging don't make their own stuff, the fact there's an identical product available on Banggood makes me wonder if there's any difference past the branding. The Chinese one is about half the price.

 

[Routermonster]

I have a couple of Starrett measuring devices:

The dial caliper is consistent in use, the markings are clear, and the best thing is that it doesn’t rely on batteries. There is no country of origin shown on the box, so I suspect it was made in China.

I also have their 11MH-150 150mm combination square, which has proved to be very useful. It was made in USA, and the packaging included a certificate from the assembler. It was a good investment.

Here’s a plug for engineers’ squares:

I don’t want to sound like I am contradicting Novocaine, but I have three Moore & Wright squares (all bought during the past 10 years or so), and these are all made in Sheffield. I keep them in a drawer when not in use to protect them. My traditional rosewood carpenters’ squares don’t get much use now.

And no, I don’t have a problem buying measuring and marking tools ...

HTH
Les

 

[Woodbloke]

A dial caliper never has a flat battery, is easy to read, and can be re-calibrated in seconds when the temperature changes.

Agreed, a dial calliper never needs to have the battery changed, but in the 'rough n'tumble' of a workshop, the one I had some years ago was too delicate and soon got itself broke :eusa-whistle: It also takes just a simple press of a button on a digital jobbie to instantly re-calibrate the thing. It will also change to imperial if you ever decide to use such an arcane system of measurement :lol: - Rob

 

[Mike G]

...... What would you use a dial caliper for Mike? Curious in case I’m missing out on something, I’m not even sure what one is to be perfectly honest.Ian

Believe it or not, it's most common use in my workshop is measuring the size of drill bits and router cutters!!! However, it's also great for measuring the thickness of thin bits of wood, or the width of narrow groove, or as a depth gauge. It's most certainly not an everyday tool, but they're cheap, and useful. This is what they look like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sharplace-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

[Mike G]

The downside for me for a dial caliper is that the accuracy is only as good as your eyesight. Having any sort of decimal accuracy on them is surely wasted?.....

Measuring to a tenth of a mm is a doddle.....even without glasses on. No-one involved in woodwork needs to be more accurate than that, but for a hundredth of a mm, you'll need your glasses.

 

[Routermonster]

Agreed, a dial calliper never needs to have the battery changed, but in the 'rough n'tumble' of a workshop, the one I had some years ago was too delicate and soon got itself broke :eusa-whistle: It also takes just a simple press of a button on a digital jobbie to instantly re-calibrate the thing. It will also change to imperial if you ever decide to use such an arcane system of measurement :lol: - Rob

Last year I managed to knock my dial caliper off the workbench. It landed on the concrete floor, resulting in the dial mis-reading by half a millimetre. With the help of a magnifying glass, a set of jewellers’ screwdrivers and the internet, I disassembled it and managed to restore the gear wheel and rack to proper operation. I shudder to think of how an expensive Mitutoyo would fare in my clumsy hands!

As MikeG and others have said, a dial (or digital) caliper is a very useful tool to have in the workshop, provided you don’t drop it.

Les

 

[ScaredyCat]

Thanks for the replies...

I’ve never been sure about that Moses’ Cat guy, always seems to be pushing some kind of agenda that earns him cash but maybe I just haven’t watched enough of his stuff to get a good gauge of what he actually is.

I fully understand that, I see so many woodworker yt videos where they've basically sold out their integrity for tools/equipment and it's obvious.

We buy decent stuff for our apprentices to use at college.
I have no idea how these compare (either in quality or price) to iGaging gear, but we use a lot of 'Insize" stuff from Cutwel in our metal workshops.
https://www.cutwel.co.uk/measuring-tool ... nstruments

Thanks I'll have a look at these too.

what they have managed to do it buy in to youtube and get their products known.

Oddly the only reference on YT I've seen to igaging was in this video, although I'd seen them on WWWS.

I also don't like that the accuracy is on marked in " for most of their kit, which at 0.001" for a lot of it, it's acceptable and they claim a similar resolution to M&W and Starrett.

The ones at WWWS have inch and mm markings.

This is what they look like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sharplace-Measuring-Caliper-Vernier-Shock-proof/dp/B0778L6K6C

My biggest issue, is, and always seems to be "what about accuracy" it's the one recurring issue for me. How can I check if I haven't got accurate tools to check and if I've got accurate tools to check, why am I buying more that I have to check.

 

[Mike G]

Andy, this is a blind alley. Don't go up it. Accuracy in woodwork is about fit, and not about dimensions. Don't forget that all the great woodwork in history has been made without any "accurate" or consistent means of measurement, and if all your measuring tools were removed from you, other than a square, you would still be able to make practically anything you want. Marking up wood is about marks or scratches you make on the surface being the same on all the bits of wood where it needs to be the same, and the absolute distance between them is determined by other bits of wood, and not by a set number of millimetres. You really, really don't need a calliper, and if you do have one, you never, but never, need to look at anything beyond a tenth of a mm.

 

[novocaine]

Agreed, a dial calliper never needs to have the battery changed, but in the 'rough n'tumble' of a workshop, the one I had some years ago was too delicate and soon got itself broke :eusa-whistle: It also takes just a simple press of a button on a digital jobbie to instantly re-calibrate the thing. It will also change to imperial if you ever decide to use such an arcane system of measurement :lol: - Rob

Last year I managed to knock my dial caliper off the workbench. It landed on the concrete floor, resulting in the dial mis-reading by half a millimetre. With the help of a magnifying glass, a set of jewellers’ screwdrivers and the internet, I disassembled it and managed to restore the gear wheel and rack to proper operation. I shudder to think of how an expensive Mitutoyo would fare in my clumsy hands!

As MikeG and others have said, a dial (or digital) caliper is a very useful tool to have in the workshop, provided you don’t drop it.

Les

most dial calipers have a screw on the rear face of the dial, loosen it and you can rotate the face with them set to zero. fine for the most part, otherwise a good set comes with a slip (that sets in the workshop right now so I can't show you) that lifts the gear wheel and lets you reset to zero.

I'll try and take some pictures of the mits later (one as the screw the other has a bezel lock).
I'll have to post a few pics of my somewhat sorded selection of measuring tools from a former life.

 

[novocaine]

My biggest issue, is, and always seems to be "what about accuracy" it's the one recurring issue for me. How can I check if I haven't got accurate tools to check and if I've got accurate tools to check, why am I buying more that I have to check.

if you want repeatable accuracy over the life of the tool then it needs to be calibrated. my tools used to go to the calibration workshop for that, these days I make do with a couple of gauge blocks.

 

[spb]

My biggest issue, is, and always seems to be "what about accuracy" it's the one recurring issue for me. How can I check if I haven't got accurate tools to check and if I've got accurate tools to check, why am I buying more that I have to check.

In addition to what Mike said, for those cases where you do want to measure something in home woodworking, it doesn't much matter whether the device is bang-on accurate as long as it's consistent with itself. Usually what you need to know is not the absolute exact measurement of this part, but rather whether it's bigger or smaller than this other part and by how much. Use the same instrument to measure both of them, and even if it's not accurate in absolute terms the answer you actually need will be correct. Need to size a piece to fit a 25mm hole? Measure the hole (or drill bit, or router cutter, or groove...) with the same device you're measuring the piece with, and make the numbers match even if they don't say exactly 25.

So, the most important things are that (a) if you measure the same thing multiple times you get the same answer to within your working tolerances, and (b) if you stack a number of pieces of the same thickness together, the measured total is the thickness of each one times the number of pieces, again to within working tolerance. Both of those you can check easily.

The one thing that does need to be accurate in absolute terms is squares, of course, but those are easily verified and adjusted by well-known methods.

 

[spb]

Oh, and on the subject of YouTube woodworkers' opinions: while I've also seen Katz-Moses disparage them off-handedly, Stumpy Nubs has praised them on a number of occasions. What was it that opinions were like?

 

[Cabinetman]

Andy, this is a blind alley. Don't go up it. Accuracy in woodwork is about fit, and not about dimensions. Don't forget that all the great woodwork in history has been made without any "accurate" or consistent means of measurement, and if all your measuring tools were removed from you, other than a square, you would still be able to make practically anything you want. Marking up wood is about marks or scratches you make on the surface being the same on all the bits of wood where it needs to be the same, and the absolute distance between them is determined by other bits of wood, and not by a set number of millimetres. You really, really don't need a calliper, and if you do have one, you never, but never, need to look at anything beyond a tenth of a mm.

Spot-on on Mike, once you have the main constituents to a size the rest just flows downwards. Yes thanks for that I know what one is now – I may even get one! Ian

 

[Woodbloke]

Andy, this is a blind alley. Don't go up it. Accuracy in woodwork is about fit, and not about dimensions. Don't forget that all the great woodwork in history has been made without any "accurate" or consistent means of measurement, and if all your measuring tools were removed from you, other than a square, you would still be able to make practically anything you want. Marking up wood is about marks or scratches you make on the surface being the same on all the bits of wood where it needs to be the same, and the absolute distance between them is determined by other bits of wood, and not by a set number of millimetres. You really, really don't need a calliper, and if you do have one, you never, but never, need to look at anything beyond a tenth of a mm.

:text-+1: :text-goodpost: - Rob

 

[ScaredyCat]

Andy, this is a blind alley. Don't go up it. Accuracy in woodwork is about fit, and not about dimensions. Don't forget that all the great woodwork in history has been made without any "accurate" or consistent means of measurement, and if all your measuring tools were removed from you, other than a square, you would still be able to make practically anything you want. Marking up wood is about marks or scratches you make on the surface being the same on all the bits of wood where it needs to be the same, and the absolute distance between them is determined by other bits of wood, and not by a set number of millimetres. You really, really don't need a calliper, and if you do have one, you never, but never, need to look at anything beyond a tenth of a mm.

Thanks Mike. That post is worth way more than the number of characters used to create it. Whilst it seems obvious, it's not especially if you come from the world of 1's and 0's ..

As an aside the calliper can be useful when adjusting the chain on my motorcycle, but since I haven't been out for 11 months, it's not really an issue right now - I can put more towards other tools.

 

[PAC1]

I have a dial calliper that I use similar to Mike G to check the size of drill bits and thickness of thin stock it is a cheap plastic one, it cost about a fiver. It is easy to adjust and read and only measures to 10ths of a mm. I had an expensive digital one which measured to 1/1000th but they are not compatible with a woodshed and invariably do not work when needed as the cold has done for the battery and the wood moves several 1000ths between a dry day and a humid day. So I sold it. The plastic one is sufficient for my uses and if dropped bounces around (no harm done).
The thing to remember with woodworking is that a mortice and tenon fits if it slides together with a slight bit of hand pressure and does not slide apart with gravity. No calliper or gauge will tell you that measurement. Most things in woodworking do not need to be a specific size they need to fit together.

 

[Trevanion]

Barely a day goes by where I don't use a caliper in my work, but admittedly I rarely use a digital caliper for woodworking as I prefer a vernier for that BUT I do use the digital caliper very often for metal related measurements so I couldn't really live without it.

You won't regret any of your purchases, even the height gauge is a very handy bit of kit.

Metalworking is a world of known and consistent measurements, Woodworking is a world of known measurements for all of five minutes until they changed as the humidity picked up :lol:

 

[Phil]

...... What would you use a dial caliper for Mike? Curious in case I’m missing out on something, I’m not even sure what one is to be perfectly honest.Ian

Believe it or not, it's most common use in my workshop is measuring the size of drill bits and router cutters!!! However, it's also great for measuring the thickness of thin bits of wood, or the width of narrow groove, or as a depth gauge. It's most certainly not an everyday tool, but they're cheap, and useful. This is what they look like:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sharplace-...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Agree on the drill and router bits.
I have a very solid vernier to do that.
For router bit height and depth of cut I have a U-shaped thing with an adjustable ruler down the middle.

Wood measuring - good quality 1000mm, 500mm and some 300mm steel rules

 

[Peri]

My days of reading to 1/10mm by eye are long gone ! haha

The kids at college ask me to check a micrometer for them, my standard reply is "I can tell you the micrometer is green and silver....after that you're on your own"

 

[AJB Temple]

I have tried digital callipers but the batteries let them down, even the fairly decent German ones I bought. ended top with a boxed, and used, Mititoyo (or however you spell it). It's got a dial with a calibration knob on top, and is very easy to use. Brilliant for checking drill bit, router bit and screw shaft sizes, and for checking the thickness off drawer boards when I am routing out slots. I got it off eBay. Can't recall what I paid but was not silly money.

TOP TIP: I was moaning to my optician just before Christmas that I struggle to see small numbers on rules etc in the (temporary) workshop unless the light is very good. Turns out he is a woodworker too. Anyway, he gave me a pair of clip on lenses that fit to my glasses. They are very good and were only a tenner. I'll post a photo when I get a second.

 

[AJB Temple]

These are very effective anti-squinters

 

[TrimTheKing]

Thanks, I'll remember those when I reach the grand ages of you fellas... :eusa-whistle:

 

[Woodbloke]

These are very effective anti-squinters

...must be similar to these;



...that Steve Fletcher sports in 'The Repair Shop' - Rob

 

[Lurker]

I was thinking I needed to turbo charge my specs, then I got a panel light
https://www.toolstation.com/meridian-le ... nel/p67754

Like this.
And realised that achieved the same result.

My new workshop will be fitted with them.
Anyone know a good source?

 

[Cabinetman]

I have been thinking for a little while that I ought to have better lighting over my bench, not too fond of LEDs what colour light are they please, blue white or warm white? Ian

 

[TrimTheKing]

I was thinking I needed to turbo charge my specs, then I got a panel light
https://www.toolstation.com/meridian-le ... nel/p67754

Like this.
And realised that achieved the same result.

My new workshop will be fitted with them.
Anyone know a good source?

I bought mine from China on eBay. Brilliant and I’ve got 5 in my workshop.

 

[TrimTheKing]

I have been thinking for a little while that I ought to have better lighting over my bench, not too fond of LEDs what colour light are they please, blue white or warm white? Ian

There are different options but mine are 6500k daylight and are a very clean bright white.

 

[AJB Temple]

As a reference, I use a Festool duo light work light and tripod a lot, especially when painting. That has a colour temperature of 5,000K and 8,000 lumens with CRI of 80. Slightly "cooler" than sunlight they say. Lot's of high end finish decorators seem to use them. My experience is it gives very effective work lighting and is not tiring.
Not sure if that kind of output is suitable for ceiling panels.
Adrian

 

[novocaine]

Has the thread drifted far enough yet?

Todays little task between actually working for amliving was to reclock a DTI. Those of a machine sensitive nature should look away now.

 

[Nelsun]

I have the digital calipers and use them on a daily basis. The nice big digital display is great if your eyes aren't what they used to be and they have a good quality feel to them.

 

[Loghead]

........Then I realised it was for metalworking......

Are you sure? I can't see anything which suggests that to me. If it is metalwork, then as you say it's a different matter altogether, but for woodwork, any combination square that is close to square can be adjusted to be bang on. A dial caliper never has a flat battery, is easy to read, and can be re-calibrated in seconds when the temperature changes.

How bang on Mike!
I hope so anyhow. I am looking out some maple and walnut to make me a wooden try square. Once it's bang on, it's... well, it's bang on. If it gets bumped about, (Mine don't except by accident) then it's easy to correct; and doesn't the inclusion of a few curves on the end of the blade look kinda kewl!
I have to face the chaos that is my shop first! :mrgreen:

Regards
John Alfredo!

 

[Loghead]

I was thinking I needed to turbo charge my specs, then I got a panel light
https://www.toolstation.com/meridian-le ... nel/p67754

Like this.
And realised that achieved the same result.

My new workshop will be fitted with them.
Anyone know a good source?

Wish I could do something about my specs Lurker.
The optometrist says he can't give me a prescription, as I am on the strongest he can supply.
There you go!

John Alfredo bscene-drinkingcheers: