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Door on Edwardian brick porch

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Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 03 Aug 2022, 08:10

My mum’s house is a brick Edwardian with an open brick porch. I’m considering adding a door to the porch to aid with sound and heat insulation. I would mimic the style of the existing front door which would remain as is. The two major open questions regarding technical issues relate to attaching the wooden frame to the existing brick structure and stained glass:

1. Has anyone got any guidance on attaching wooden door frames to existing brick structures without causing too much damage to the original structure?
2. Anyone know anything about getting Edwardian look stained glass with modern security/thermal properties?

Looks like the porch had a door at one point in the past. I see some holes in the brick and traces of glue/paint or similar.

The top of the opening is an arch, so that could be an interesting challenge.

Thanks for any advice you may have. I’m still not 100% sure it’s a good idea, but maybe answers on the points above will help clarify.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Lurker » 03 Aug 2022, 08:44

Stained glass windows incorporating double glazing can be made, indeed with the support of a professional, I have made a few. But be warned, these are very labour intensive, and decent professionals are few and far between.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby 9fingers » 03 Aug 2022, 09:33

Without doing supporting calculations, my gut feel is that the 3' or so air gap between the two doors will be providing most of the thermal insulation and that losses through the stained glass will be minimal.
You could always incorporate a secondary plain glass panel into your door design if you want to get maximum performance.
Fixing the door frame with the standard frame anchors will do minimal damage to brick/stonework and you could always pickup on the existing holes.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Aug 2022, 10:33

I have used a self adhesive lead trim to outline the pattern/picture for the stained glass effect, and then used special translucent paints to colour the bits in between.

That was on a single pane. I suppose it could be employed on the outside of a DGU.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Mike G » 03 Aug 2022, 10:37

Firstly, I'd look up and down the road at existing properties of the same era. Some may still have their enclosed porch intact, and that should give you a clue. Secondly, if the existing front door is secure then your porch door and glazing doesn't really need to be. You are simply adding an extra layer of security and insulation. But as Jim said, there are glaziers about who will be able to replicate the orginal. Ask any glazier and they'll know who can do it.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 03 Aug 2022, 14:22

Thanks for the tips everyone.

What paints did you use, Malcolm? I might experiment with some pseudo stained glass techniques myself.

Were there any particular challenges with putting together real stained glass, Lurker? The existing style is basically coloured rectangles, so I don't have to get particularly artistic.

That's a good point about not having to stress the exterior insulation too much because of the air gap (and it's all gravy anyway), Bob. When you say "standard frame anchors", do you mean the things that look like long screws with massive rawl plugs or something else?

Good idea to take a closer look at surrounding properties Mike. I think the house was designed with an open porch and it was enclosed some years later then removed again. Some of the houses along the street have porches that I suspect were also enclosed after the house was built, but several of them look pretty good. As far as the existing security goes, the wood of the door itself is extremely robust and would take a battering ram to bring it down. The stained glass on the other hand could be knocked out with a gentle tap from a small child. Part of the goal of the exterior door is to create a complete barrier that would be able to repel thieving toddlers that might wander past.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Aug 2022, 14:49

Windows wrote:Thanks for the tips everyone.

What paints did you use, Malcolm? I might experiment with some pseudo stained glass techniques myself.



It was a couple of decades ago, so I can't remember. I do recall the paint had a consistency that made it stick to the glass and with different movements of the brush you could achieve a textured effect.

I would google glass painting and see what you get. I noticed quite a few on Etsy.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby 9fingers » 03 Aug 2022, 14:57

Windows wrote:Bob. When you say "standard frame anchors", do you mean the things that look like long screws with massive rawl plugs or something else?


Yes those are the ones. If you fit them into a counterbored hole in the frame then the ugly great pozi drive heads can be covered with a wooden plug.

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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Lurker » 03 Aug 2022, 15:01

I doubt that you could do it without some training in a stained glass shop.
I picked up the rudiments via a 12x3 hour “evening class “, but I have been back twice for further terms where I have basically just used the facilities plus a bit of advice from the expert.
Glass is quite expensive unless you can find some old stuff to repurpose.
You will use a surprisingly large amount of lead and you can guess that isn’t cheap.
Then there are tools and cement.
I do some small things in my workshop, but for something like windows I would hire a bench at the place I learned. Which I have done a few times.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby spb » 03 Aug 2022, 15:26

Malc2098 wrote:I have used a self adhesive lead trim to outline the pattern/picture for the stained glass effect, and then used special translucent paints to colour the bits in between.

That was on a single pane. I suppose it could be employed on the outside of a DGU.


Something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tapSAA9rWaY

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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Malc2098 » 03 Aug 2022, 17:10

spb wrote:
Something like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tapSAA9rWaY




Spot on! The paint even goes on how I remember it.

I enjoy watching his channel.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 04 Aug 2022, 07:49

Thanks for the video.

For those that like pics, this is what we’re dealing with:
F617D1CF-7204-48C9-AE20-7D0BC87D5F22.jpeg
Open porch and front door with stained glass
(307.36 KiB)


Lighting in this pic doesn’t really show the stained glass at its best. I should have turned the interior light on.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Mike G » 04 Aug 2022, 08:17

Beautiful rubbed-brick arch! You're going to have a challenge around the plinth. What's your plan there?
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Pete Maddex » 04 Aug 2022, 08:46

Very nice door, seems a shame to hide it.

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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Lurker » 04 Aug 2022, 08:50

Where is the dog going to sit when you have filled the porch in?

Lovely door
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 04 Aug 2022, 08:57

Great question, Mike. What are the options? Inward opening rectangular door that doesn’t protrude into opening and extends beyond plinth at bottom? Inward opening door that sits within opening, but has cut outs at the bottom? Rectangular door that sits within opening, but framing is thicker above plinth level? Are there others that I’m missing?

The space isn’t wide enough to thicken up the frame with side lights I think, so there’s really only space for a door and its frame.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 04 Aug 2022, 09:03

You’re right Pete. Would be putting as nice a door in front as the one that’s there, but it’s possible this is a bad idea. Might be better to put secondary glazing on inside of existing door and recheck draught proofing and leave it at that. Want to explore the idea a bit first though.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 04 Aug 2022, 09:07

Lurker, dog never moves so will just have to work around him.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Pete Maddex » 04 Aug 2022, 09:23

I have seen the frame cut to fit the plinth before, how wide is the opening inside the plinth? can you get a standard door to fit or will you have to make/buy a custom one.


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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 04 Aug 2022, 10:14

The opening is 1m 3cm at plinth level and 1m 14cm above that.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby 9fingers » 04 Aug 2022, 10:21

Wide enough to need a custom door and not wide enough to have side infill panels to take a standard door!

C'est la vie!

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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby HOJ » 04 Aug 2022, 19:49

Superb looking door, any chance of a closer picture of the door, intrigued by the shapes of the stiles, around the mid rail.

I wouldn't want to hide that.
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 05 Aug 2022, 06:00

I’ll take another pic in a bit Paul, but here’s some of the doors on nearby houses:

AF1C7321-412D-4F2D-AD5A-54CFD0B5A080.jpeg
Neighbourhood stained glass
(221.81 KiB)


EC03AD1D-2D53-42AD-8E64-AC81286424B0.jpeg
Neighbourhood stained glass 2
(192.85 KiB)


B330E12F-914B-4F9D-9F87-B2CC84870A78.jpeg
Neighbourhood stained glass 3
(118.48 KiB)
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Windows » 05 Aug 2022, 08:38

Here’s a better view of our stained glass from the inside and a close-up of the door:

184F0E0B-7B34-4660-83F7-4E79C7D9F7D1.jpeg
Stained glass
(179.29 KiB)


E5805C94-1100-4645-AE2A-7500F30B28E6.jpeg
Close-up
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Re: Door on Edwardian brick porch

Postby Trevanion » 06 Aug 2022, 00:44

Ooo, those other doors in the neighbourhood set quite a high bar, don't they? Whoever made the last two photographed was really showing off, the marginal glazing bars with the bullseyes in the corners are rather complex joinery. Seeing stuff like that, and particularly your existing door which the aesthetics are wonderful, humbles me about my own skill, there were some seriously skilled individuals in the past and there are very few today that can match them.

Windows wrote:1. Has anyone got any guidance on attaching wooden door frames to existing brick structures without causing too much damage to the original structure?


As Bob said, drill and affix with frame fixing screws, spray some expanding foam around the outside of the frame to fill any gaps and provide a thermal break (or you could use Oakum and Lime if you're some kind of luddite :lol:) and it's not going anywhere without someone crashing into it with a car.

Windows wrote:2. Anyone know anything about getting Edwardian look stained glass with modern security/thermal properties?


I've not had it done, but it is possible to get stained glass double glazing, It's not something I trust my supplier with as they struggle to get even regular units correct at the best of times. I personally wouldn't bother with the thermal aspect of it as, again, as Bob says, it looks to be an uninsulated porch and there won't be much gain from the double glazing without insulating the porch itself, I'd be looking at finding someone who can do acoustic laminated stained glass from a security and noise reduction standpoint.

Windows wrote:The top of the opening is an arch, so that could be an interesting challenge.


I've got a book that goes into a lot of detail on how to lay out those arches if you want me to take a few photos of the pages for you.

Windows wrote:Great question, Mike. What are the options? Inward opening rectangular door that doesn’t protrude into opening and extends beyond plinth at bottom? Inward opening door that sits within opening, but has cut outs at the bottom? Rectangular door that sits within opening, but framing is thicker above plinth level? Are there others that I’m missing?


Personally, I would sit the frame in the opening and have cut-outs in the frame to accommodate the plinth. From the measurements you've given the difference between the plinth and the wall above it is about a 55mm offset, so on a 95mm section being cut out will leave you with 40mm at the bottom, more than enough. With a 95mm section and taking the rebates into account, 15mm each side, your door would roughly be 980mm wide, or 3' 2.5" in old money, quite a fair bit wider than a standard door but scaling off the photograph you've got about 2400mm before you have to start worrying about the arch so it'll be a fairly tall door too and not too badly proportioned.

My advice would be to decide on your ironmongery from the outset, it can dictate how you will construct the door. Something I've been using lately has been the Winkhaus AV2 3-point locking gear which is pretty good aside from the striker plate keeps looking and feeling a bit industrial compared to the lock, the shoots automatically throw upon the door being closed so it's very secure but very easy to lock yourself out without the key, the heritage lock with the keyhole higher up the door than a modern one (modern doors have the cylinder about 900mm from the bottom of the door, the heritage is about 1400mm) looks more in keeping with old world joinery.

https://www.winkhaus.com/en-gb/door-locks/mechanical-door-locking-systems/automatic-locking-systems/autolock-av2-heritage

Another consideration is timber, being in the brick reveal the outer door will get a lot more weather than the one that's inside the porch, so you will need quite a durable timber to withstand the elements. The de-facto timber of choice these days among British joiners I would say is Accoya, which is a sustainable, totally stable chemically altered softwood (Radiata Pine) that has amazing durability and is guaranteed for 50 years above ground, the downside is that it costs as much as some high-end exotic timbers these days at around £4000 a cubic metre or £115 a cubic foot. Alternatively, you could go for what everyone used to use in copious amounts which would be either Sapele, Utile, or Iroko, each have their own pluses and minuses but are less than a third the price of Accoya. I personally would avoid commercial softwoods like "Joinery Grade" which is Scots Pine, which isn't particularly durable though some claim it will last forever when you paint it with linseed oil paint, snake oil was more believable.

https://www.accoya.com/uk/

Then there are draught seals, I usually use two which are the Aquamac 124 in the seat of the rebate and Aquamac 21 as a wiping seal on the face of the rebate, also you will most likely need some kind of threshold on the floor, I like the Exitex Macclex low-profile thresholds as they're simple to fit and work well.

https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/aquamac-124-weatherseal.html

https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/aquamac-21-weatherseal.html

https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/exitex-macclex-15-2-threshold-914mm-aluminium.html

Of course, there are loads of little design details and allowances required for doors, but we can can go over those another time.
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