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Part 9 Bedoin workshop

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Re: I really hate wood. Part II - what am I doing?

Postby Mike G » 27 Apr 2021, 20:14

4x4 joists only span a little over 2 metres, so are you putting in a central bridging joist in the traditional manner?

You'll need 130mm of insulation, I think, to get to the necessary U value. Check on this, but that was the case last time I worked on a warm roof. You need to design your eaves detail carefully, because it can get quite ugly with the big thicknesses of insulation, and with the joist thickness if this extends past the walls. You also need to design in continuity between the wall insulation and the roof insulation.

Normally, thicker is better, but there is a reason that 6mm ply is usually specified for the top of warm decks, and that is the flat heads of the fixings which pin the build-up down to the joists. With 10mm ply you run the risk of them standing proud, whereas with 6mm ply they form a shallow depression, enabling a pretty flat surface to be obtained.

You don't have a services void. This is no big deal if you have lights mounted on the beams, but if you have recessed lights you are going to need to provide an additional zone for them (and the wiring). Heat shields would be necessary because of the location under the insulation. If you are going to have beam-mounted lights, then you've got to design in a channel for the wires which is safe from the fixings you'll be nailing in "blind" from 7 or 8" above.

Finally, I think you will require plasterboard in your build-up, even if you don't want the interior show face to be plastered. This is the easiest way of showing the necessary fire resistance. Check with your building inspector.
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Re: I really hate wood. Part II - what am I doing?

Postby AJB Temple » 27 Apr 2021, 21:41

Roger, yes I have run through a full cable bundle including satellite dish etc and a spare pipe with just two ropes through it to future proof. I always do this. There is even a spare water pipe.

Mike - super helpful and I appreciate you taking the time. Picking up on your points, I have yet to check roof detail with BC, I am still in the thinking it over stage but I have lots of headroom and can easily make insulation 130mm or more. The original drawing was only 100mm and when I changed the design they did not comment at all. They are building about a thousand houses of uninspiring design on the other side of the village and frankly I think BC have their hands full and are fed up. Pre concrete pour inspection was mainly done from the old kitchen (nowhere near) with cup of tea on his way home. He is in same local bee club as me and is a good mentor (has 20 hives) with me being a bee keeping learner still.

Noted re wall to roof insulation abutments. Much of the roof is between the two buildings and should not be a problem. I will go overboard on insulation and will be beefing it up on the barn side as part of overall refurb as time and cash permits. The kitchen is already super insulated in the roof space. I can easily make the insulation 150mm or more.

Plasterboard was in my list above but not my preferred material as it is so feeble and I was hoping to avoid it. However, it is cheap.

Your comment about deflection with 6mm top board beneath the EDPM is a great idea. My entire reasoning was it will be walked on, so a thick board is better I thought. But I would have to do a rebate to sink the screw fixings and washers. If I can avoid that - excellent. I can easily do accurate lines at each end to locate where I screw down into the oak.

Your comment on the 4" by 4" oak rafters surprises me. There is an off centre post structure running the length, with two bridging posts in the run, which means I have a span of 2.2 metres on one side and 2.4 metres on the other. I have a shed load of this stuff so the oak rafters can be spaced as I wish - aesthetics are a big factor for me here, I am aiming for an old timber framing look, so I am not trying to minimise materials that are on show. I can do the rafters a foot apart for example. However, the loading is peanuts. There is no second story so the only weight is the roof itself plus whoever walks on it.

Lights is a very good point. As you know, I have quite a big piano and it will go in here. I don't want downlighters on it as they create awful reflections, so the vague plan is to have very directional light pools to illuminate some pictures and the interior of the piano and the music desk. I will have to give this some more thought, but in any case I think the lights will be around the room edge. However, I may want some sort of lighting on the bookshelves.

You've made a good point and I might put a bit of Galvanised industrial tube through the roof space over the bridging beam, with some junction terminations. I have to put protection in anyway as I already have two suspended insulated central heating pipes bridging the gap.

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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby AJB Temple » 05 May 2021, 12:52

Part III. No doubt with sideways pictures.

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This is me trying to get run over by a concrete lorry.

I proceeded with the concreting of the slab anyway, despite having a broken foot. Took painkillers and stuffed it into my concreting wellies. (Was fun getting them off as foot swelled up). This was a full load from my usual local suppliers. Booked for 8am and he turned up dead on 8am.

Slab had been very carefully prepped, with water, drainage, trunking and cables already in the hardcore and extra water feed on top. Wire mesh propped up. The slab is actually on two levels so one bit is quite a lot deeper. Additional post footings are already in.

As I was hobbling with said broken foot, my wife tied the mesh together, and she couldn't get the hang of my wire twisting tool, so we used the thickest cable ties we had. Formwork is scaffold planks. Firmly fixed to the buildings and heavy concrete blocks as belt and braces. Levels marked internally with a laser.



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Unfortunately, yesterday when we did this, it was extremely stormy. However, the main problem was the concrete lorry driver only had two chute extenders on board due to an error at the site. I had asked for maximum chute length as the bulk of the concrete needed to be 6 metres back from the drop edge.

He got his truck back as far as he could, but we still had to rake six cubic metres of concrete back a long way. The mix is C30 (originally I was going for C25) and a full load delivered was £610. That is a lot cheaper than anyone else locally, but we have been loyal to Gallaghers over the years and they are always super reliable. They also supply our type 1 and aggregates (we have consumed about 180 tons on projects here) as I had to do the entire drive and parking area).

The concrete slab is not doing a huge amount, as there was already a lot of pre-existing concrete below. Its main job is to provide a step between the buildings and a surface for the floor. The finished floor will be limestone. The main barn is very low and I will end up with a small step up out of this building into the connection building, and then another step into the kitchen. There is a further step up into the utility room and larder (currently temporary workshop) further along. This is a nuisance but can't be helped.

Sorry - no WIP pictures of us laying the slab. We were really up against it time wise (wife helped). Raking concrete with a broken foot meant I was slower than usual, and the mix was going off in front of my eyes as we had such a lot to rake back.

No sooner had we tamped it and scraped any humps, (did this in two directions - quite awkward because of the adjacent buildings) and snatched a quick coffee, and it was ready for me to float.

I bought this magnesium pole float (it actually has three poles so will reach 7 metres) when we did our first slabs here and although I am no expert it is a handy tool. You twist the handle to tilt the blade, so you can have a front or back leading edge for the pull and push strokes. The blade is about 4 ft wide.

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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby AJB Temple » 05 May 2021, 13:03

Just as I started floating, the heavens opened, briefly and heavily, and I was basically pushing rainwater around. Not ideal as I needed to float it just as the top got creamy. Remember, I am not a builder, just an amateur. There might be special methods here but I had to do my best in the circumstances.

It was fine at each end, but had a few ripples in the middle. When the rain stopped I tried to smooth them with the float but it dragged a bit.

It needs a bit of cleaning up with an angle grinder in a couple of spots I simply could not reach with the float. But it will all be covered in limestone flooring anyway.

It is 2cm deeper all round than I intended. The original plan was always that I would have a bit extra, and would barrow it to our shed base. However, pressure of time with all that raking, and broken foot chucked that plan out of the window and I decided to just accept that it would be thicker.

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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby AJB Temple » 05 May 2021, 13:04

I know it is not perfect, and no doubt professionals would do better, but circumstances conspired against me here.
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby novocaine » 05 May 2021, 13:12

a professional who strives for perfection is a professional who goes out of business. the target is "good enough or just a bit better".
perfection is the goal of the amateur.

looks "good enough or just a bit better" to me. :lol:
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby Mike G » 05 May 2021, 13:48

AJB Temple wrote:.......my wife tied the mesh together, and she couldn't get the hang of my wire twisting tool, so we used the thickest cable ties we had........


Perfectly legitimate. Pros twitch with wire and specialist pliers, but I've always used potato sack wire and pullers, which are a bit like a Stanley "Yankee" in reverse with a hook on the end. The wires have loops built in, so you just hook the loops over the hook on the puller, pull it a couple of times, and the wire neatly twists itself into the perfect shape. However, this time I ran out of the wires and couldn't buy less than a thousand, so I bought a bag of zip ties instead.
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby Mike G » 05 May 2021, 13:51

Excellent, Adrian. Great to get the concrete in the ground, because everything above that level is controllable and predictable. Concrete hides an awful lot of work.

Is your concrete butting up against timber (of the house, on the right of the photo)? If so, what's your plan there?
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby AJB Temple » 05 May 2021, 14:15

Thanks Mike, No. The concrete does not butt against house timber. Once I set the levels and marked all around, my wife used the Festool Vecturo multitool to cut back the horrid shiplap to reveal the dwarf walls below and the concrete butts up against that. It is in fact below the dpm on the house side, which as you know is quite a bit lower than the kitchen side.

I would not normally ask my wife to do this, but the foot situation is an encumbrance currently, so I made lunch instead.

All of the woodwork was greased with old oil and in any case as I get on, that shiplap (on both buildings) is all coming off. On the house side it becomes an internal wall anyway. It will be thickly insulated (to reduce sound transmission) from TV on one side and piano on the other. Still thinking about that as obviously there is a doorway too.

Left the shiplap on for now as weather shield. Next job is dwarf wall, which will be concrete blocks as that is what I have. Plus insulation. I am a terrible bricklayer so whilst resting up the leg this afternoon I shall be doing you tube vids on how not to make a right mess with the mortar.

I can't wait to get onto planing up and jointing the oak. That's the bit I like most.
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby RogerS » 05 May 2021, 15:14

Limestone flooring ? Is that limestone tiles? Are you laying them? Traditional way ? Think about these....still solid as a rock.

http://thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.ph ... ace#p69699
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby AJB Temple » 05 May 2021, 15:37

Thanks Roger. I have never seen those before. If those black pads lift the tile up a bit, what stops them cracking?

This is relevant to me as my quite big grand piano will be shifted to this space. It weighs 468 kg and has a three point loading on three double brass castors. It will get rolled around sometimes when it is mic'ed up and so the floor needs to stand up to that.

For flooring I have three choices. It may depend what we decide to do in the main drawing room adjacent, which has the carpet that was here when we came, but is a concrete floor beneath.

I have enough tiles here to do either 22mm black limestone slabs 900mm by 600mm which is what I have laid in the kitchen and utility. These are incredibly heavy and also uneven thickness, so they were laid onto mortar. I intended to use them outside for my surplus stock. We also have a job lot of similar sized but off white milled limestone tiles, that my wife bought dirt cheap off Gumtree from people who did a self build. We have easily enough to do this room and they are easy to match for the adjacent room. They are all a consistent thickness of about 12mm I think. Or I could buy some sort of hardwood flooring or engineered laminate.

Absolutely anything that will save my back and knees is of interest to me.
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Re: I really hate wood. Part III - slab nightmare

Postby RogerS » 05 May 2021, 16:10

AJB Temple wrote:Thanks Roger. I have never seen those before. If those black pads lift the tile up a bit, what stops them cracking?

This is relevant to me as my quite big grand piano will be shifted to this space. It weighs 468 kg and has a three point loading on three double brass castors. It will get rolled around sometimes when it is mic'ed up and so the floor needs to stand up to that.

For flooring I have three choices. It may depend what we decide to do in the main drawing room adjacent, which has the carpet that was here when we came, but is a concrete floor beneath.

I have enough tiles here to do either 22mm black limestone slabs 900mm by 600mm which is what I have laid in the kitchen and utility. These are incredibly heavy and also uneven thickness, so they were laid onto mortar. I intended to use them outside for my surplus stock. We also have a job lot of similar sized but off white milled limestone tiles, that my wife bought dirt cheap off Gumtree from people who did a self build. We have easily enough to do this room and they are easy to match for the adjacent room. They are all a consistent thickness of about 12mm I think. Or I could buy some sort of hardwood flooring or engineered laminate.

Absolutely anything that will save my back and knees is of interest to me.


Ah..I wouldn't recommend them for significant point loading that you'd get with your piano. Outside no problem.
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Re: hate building stuff. Part IV - quality work!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 21:40

I felt I should show you all some of my top quality joinery skills. Sometimes I have to push the boat out and make something really special. This triangular masterpiece is made of not oak, and has imaginary breadboard ends, first developed in the Mediterranean region of Cypressus. Orientation is not level, which is quite difficult to do this well. Moisture level is about 11%. I know this because the wood was kept by the bonfire for a while. The purple colour emulates roof lathe, but is in fact a new colour called "pink indigo" or pingo for short.

The joints are made with what I like to call the "layover" method, which depends quite a lot on deft use of a nail gun and some high tech cable ties. The water pipe that we see here is a carefully thought out sculptural addition to the design. It could do with being set back about 150mm more towards the room side so it does not emerge in the middle of the effing wall (as we may see later) but to save face I have told my wife that embedded pipepwork is the correct way to do it.



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Re: hate building stuff. Part IV - quality work!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 21:42

The picture is, for the sharp of eyeglass, upside down. (Not now as Andy fixed it) This is because I am considering entering this piece for the Turner prize, and judges like off the wall stuff.
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Re: hate building stuff. Part IV - quality work!

Postby Mike G » 11 May 2021, 21:46

:lol: :lol: :eusa-clap: :text-lol:
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 22:03

It’s exactly a week today since my wife and I laid the slab and it has gone off nicely. Had a few days of enforced lack of progress due to rain and high winds. It’s just not pleasant to work in such conditions so I don’t!

Today I cracked on with the blockwork with Mrs AJBT on hoddy duties. She made most of the muck in our mixer which we bought 5 years ago. This thing has paid for itself many times over having made lots of concrete and mortar in that period. It would be in even better condition if I had not stupidly let our local bricklayer borrow it for a weekend. (He’s a very good brickie, but his labourer does not see cleaning stuff the same way I do). We hardly ever hire tools as our experience is it costs nothing to own them, as eventually they are sold on and often for much the same as we bought them for.



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Sadly, I am not talented at bricklaying or block laying as we see here. I can do it, but ever so slowly. This lot is not quite finished, but it was a full day of 9am to 6pm just to do this much. It is one dense concrete block laid flat, and one large dense hollow concrete block laid on top. Frankly I used these for my dwarf walls because I had them left over from another job and I wanted to use them up. The outside edge will have a small brick edging, to match what We have done elsewhere, and the dwarf walls will be rendered, but neither is a priority. Inside will be insulated. On top of this low wall will go another layer of mortar (with which I will make small adjustments to levels), another bonded dpm stapled to the underside of the oak (not sure this dpm layer is essential ? but I always do it as it costs next to nothing, and then oak plates, with steel rods through to prevent wind shift risk. Stapling was an idea I pinched off Mike G and I wish I had heard that one years ago.

It is amazing how seriously heavy these dense concrete blocks are. You need quite a stiff mortar mix and even then it can squish out a bit, which is a damn nuisance. I did the base layer first, let that go off a bit and then did the next layer. My wife took a day off from normal office work and shifted every block in her wheelbarrow from our building materials store behind our garages area about 40 metres away, and she worked really hard, as I was struggling to walk about with my broken foot. Top girl.

Any remaining hollows after setting the steel rods and using up any surplus muck will be filled with spray foam, so that the layer of mortar on top has something to sit on.

Probably will take me almost a further half a day to get the rest of the blockwork done, and the rods in, but I am far enough advanced now that I can get on with getting the oak plates prepped followed by 8 oak posts as my next job. I’ve already made most or possibly all of the braces (that was an indoor job during the winter), so cleaning up the oak is my next task. Nothing gets cut to length until I am ready to make the joints.

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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 22:08

That mixer is on drugs.

There was a reason for this addendum post but now I have forgotten it. Maybe I am on drugs too.

Edit. Oh yes. I watched a You Tube video whilst in bed last night (see how exciting my life is) and this bloke laid 100 bricks in 30 minutes. It was amazing. He had a good hoddy setting him up with bricks and muck in ideal positions to avoid body twisting, but even so it was superbly neat and well finished. That man is not me.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby RogerS » 11 May 2021, 22:13

I share your pain, Adrian. But I have a solution. He's called a builder ! They are very good at concrete and blocks and stuff. Mind you, you need a good one.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 22:24

Yeah. You have to pay them though. Lots now, as everybody wants one. :shock: By contrast, I am free. My wife is semi free. (There is always a price, but I never know what it is until later).
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 11 May 2021, 22:31

This building thing is good business. Friend of mine lives in Surbiton. He is having half a dozen oak raised beds made on an area of 42 sq metres with gravel paths around them, a 35 sq m gravelled seating area on type 1, and a 25 m gravelled path on type 1. This is costing him at least £10,000 plus materials and VAT and machinery hire. Maybe £15k. Or more.

I think that is absolutely insane.

We will do this entire building for less than that, including groundworks, all oak, everything. Finished.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby Mike G » 12 May 2021, 07:09

Good to see this progress, Adrian.......and your blockwork looks plenty neat enough. It never has to be really neat unless it is to be "fair faced" and painted, which you really only ever see in sports halls and changing rooms.

You're lucky if your wife can mix mortar properly. It's a real skill to get it just right, and it is three quarters of the battle when laying bricks or blocks.

Where are you putting insulation?
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Re: hate building stuff. Part IV - quality work!

Postby Andyp » 12 May 2021, 07:48

AJB Temple wrote:The picture is, for the sharp of eyeglass, upside down. This is because I am considering entering this piece for the Turner prize, and judges like off the wall stuff.


The turner selection committee has just rejected your image :)
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby Mike G » 12 May 2021, 09:24

Oh, and as an addendum......I've seen Ian Dury and the Blockheads live, many moons ago.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby Andyp » 12 May 2021, 09:44

Mike G wrote:Oh, and as an addendum......I've seen Ian Dury and the Blockheads live, many moons ago.



Ahh Billericay Dickie - fond memories.
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Re: Part VI - Ian Dury & the Blockheads - alive!

Postby AJB Temple » 12 May 2021, 09:59

A long time ago I did some session work for them. Never saw them live though. Studio used lot of session people. Were they good live?

Mike, Insulation is a tricky one. The dwarf wall is only 400 mm high. I have enough room and foundation to insulate the outside and put a brick skin on, or insulate the inside with rigid foam, or both. But of course the bulk of the structure will be timber framed. Although not the original design (which was smooth rendered much the same as the adjacent kitchen, with no brick) I am toying with the idea of having the frame exposed inside and out, which would mean I would need to add an extra half post thickness. I have enough oak to do this. I would then use cement board on the outside, to carry two coat render between the posts, membrane, rigid foam and then plasterboard or plywood on the inside. Book shelving will be built in as well. Part of the reason for shifting all the bools to here, is sound absorption.

The original plan was to move the tall window that becomes a doorway, and relocate it to the opposite wall. However, having looked at the sight lines again last night, I might ditch that idea and put a smaller window in. Roof now gets more insulation as well.

Rather annoyingly I had an offer accepted last night on some oak double doors. Might have to adjust my blockwork if that goes ahead a bit as they are a tad wider than the 1.2m aperture I have built (which is what I would do if I was making the door).
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