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Why do we make foundations for building?

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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Andyp » 01 Jul 2021, 12:29

When you say heavy clay Adrian does your ground go from sponge like in the wet winter months to hard as concrete in the summer like our clay here does?
I cannot imagine anything of any great weight not shifting in those conditions.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby AJB Temple » 01 Jul 2021, 12:40

Yes Andy. In the area I am thinking of, it is sodden in winter and in a normal summer will dry out so that the ground cracks. But the other issue is don't want to put another lot of concrete in the ground. It's quite a way from the house and to put concrete there I would have to pump it. In addition I would like to incorporate it into our Japanese garden layout and have water beneath the building.

The relevant spot is surrounded by very large mature trees as well. I do not want to damage them with root cutting etc.

My idea is to use stone pads. I can get these in from behind the trees using a service path I have there. These can be set around a pool and rill, and build the workshop above it. We already have 5 ponds in the garden, all made by me, and I would use this as a new, filtered, Koi pond. (We have fish already).

This may just be dreaming, but I have been thinking about it for quite a long time. The existing Koi pond is too small, and the other ponds don't have bottom drains or lend themselves to the kind of filtration I would like.

Not sure what building regs aspect would be. Might need to be two buildings. That is OK as one can house the filtration etc and be a garden store.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Woodbloke » 01 Jul 2021, 13:55

AJB Temple wrote:Yes Andy. In the area I am thinking of, it is sodden in winter and in a normal summer will dry out so that the ground cracks. But the other issue is don't want to put another lot of concrete in the ground. It's quite a way from the house and to put concrete there I would have to pump it. In addition I would like to incorporate it into our Japanese garden layout and have water beneath the building.

The relevant spot is surrounded by very large mature trees as well. I do not want to damage them with root cutting etc.

My idea is to use stone pads. I can get these in from behind the trees using a service path I have there. These can be set around a pool and rill, and build the workshop above it. We already have 5 ponds in the garden, all made by me, and I would use this as a new, filtered, Koi pond. (We have fish already).

This may just be dreaming, but I have been thinking about it for quite a long time. The existing Koi pond is too small, and the other ponds don't have bottom drains or lend themselves to the kind of filtration I would like.

Not sure what building regs aspect would be. Might need to be two buildings. That is OK as one can house the filtration etc and be a garden store.


That idea sounds fantastic…water running underneath the workshop! We’ve recently joined ‘Shakkei’, the Japanese Garden Society and have just received their last quarterly mag, Vol 27, Spring 2021. We can’t have a true Japanese garden, but we’re trying to incorporate elements. On the 13 July, we have the tree surgeons coming round to take down our old, diseased….

0FAB9DB1-06AB-4BD5-86B4-DB5A99CC975A.jpeg
(329.09 KiB)


…Cherry tree which we estimate is now at least 50yo and is under attack from a fungal infection. It didn’t produce much in the way of blossom this year and in it’s place we hope to plant a ‘Bloodgood’ Japanese Maple. We’ve already bought a really attractive ‘Coral Bark’ Maple from Peter Dowle’s nursery in Ross on Wye (we got that coming back after visiting Mark) which will go against the back fence near the big red maple already planted. (The beer is the proper stuff from the Czech Republic)- Rob
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Andyp » 01 Jul 2021, 14:05

Real Pilsner beer from Plzen. Great stuff and nothing like the American Budweiser.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Woodbloke » 01 Jul 2021, 14:46

Andyp wrote:Real Pilsner beer from Plzen. Great stuff and nothing like the American Budweiser.


I know Andy; I wouldn’t touch the ‘murrican stuff with the proverbial barge pole :obscene-drinkingbuddies: - Rob
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby AJB Temple » 01 Jul 2021, 15:06

If you are creating elements of a Japanese garden Rob, don't forget that the essential core is always a pine. Usually a Japanese black pine (Pinus thunbergii) is usually regarded as essential, though can be grown as Niwaki (in the ground) and in horizontal form if you want, or as Bonsai (pot). Evergreen of course.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Woodbloke » 01 Jul 2021, 15:51

AJB Temple wrote:If you are creating elements of a Japanese garden Rob, don't forget that the essential core is always a pine. Usually a Japanese black pine (Pinus thunbergii) is usually regarded as essential, though can be grown as Niwaki (in the ground) and in horizontal form if you want, or as Bonsai (pot). Evergreen of course.

The problem with those is that they’re very difficult to prune and shape properly. We’ve watched gardeners in Japan up in trees on step ladders pruning the needles individually :shock: I used to do bonsai many years ago (I had about 40) and a pine tree is something I wouldn’t go near. Acer palmatum on the other hand are dead easy; prune back to a single pair of leaves and if the branch grows up, have it off which then promotes the horizontal ‘cloud’ formation of the tree structure. At our local bonsai club years ago, a recognised ‘expert’ :eusa-whistle: on Japanese maples said that you can be ‘ruthless’ with them.
So yes, I agree about pines but shaping and pruning them is an entirely different kettle of worms - Rob
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby AJB Temple » 01 Jul 2021, 17:21

This is one I did earlier

IMG_1841.JPG
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This was potted from a small £5 garden centre plant a year ago, and I pruned and part wired it yesterday, hence it just happened to be on my desk outside as the garden was open today for a garden club visit. Personally I find they make very cheap nursery bonsai easily enough and grow to a mature looking plant in about 5 years. This one is about 40cm from the pot rim to the top. Mostly I cut out top growth last night.

I have a few in the ground that I am keeping at about 3 metres.

Palmatums (and other acer types) grow very well here, and are easily pruned, but now and again they react very badly to pruning. I think we have about 40 various acers in the Japanese styled part of the garden some of which are now quite dramatic, but I pruned one near the wildlife pond last year and suffered a lot of die back. I am no bonsai expert (just a novice) though I have tried off and on for many years. The trouble with maples is they need to be grown in the ground first to bring the trunks on, and then potted, unless you have a lifetime available. Cheap and easy bonsai to make from scratch though. We are fortunate in that we have a couple of mature pines close enough to the Japanese area to be incorporated within it.

Cherries unfortunately are not very long lived. The Cherry Ingram garden (now a nursing home) is not far from us (10 miles at most) but most of the Japanese stock he saved for posterity has now sadly died in that garden. Cherries are devils for getting diseased if you prune them apparently. We had seven mature flowering cherries of various sizes, and one died suddenly 2 years ago for no reason that I could readily see. Awkward things.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Woodbloke » 01 Jul 2021, 19:30

AJB Temple wrote:
Palmatums (and other acer types) grow very well here, and are easily pruned, but now and again they react very badly to pruning. I think we have about 40 various acers in the Japanese styled part of the garden some of which are now quite dramatic, but I pruned one near the wildlife pond last year and suffered a lot of die back. I am no bonsai expert (just a novice) though I have tried off and on for many years. The trouble with maples is they need to be grown in the ground first to bring the trunks on, and then potted, unless you have a lifetime available. Cheap and easy bonsai to make from scratch though. We are fortunate in that we have a couple of mature pines close enough to the Japanese area to be incorporated within it.

Cherries unfortunately are not very long lived. The Cherry Ingram garden (now a nursing home) is not far from us (10 miles at most) but most of the Japanese stock he saved for posterity has now sadly died in that garden. Cherries are devils for getting diseased if you prune them apparently. We had seven mature flowering cherries of various sizes, and one died suddenly 2 years ago for no reason that I could readily see. Awkward things.

Our ground here is chalk and flint, so not a lot of good for growing stuff without loads of ‘good stuff’ being added to the soil (once all the rocks and flint have been sieved out). I had a few bonsai that I’d grown on in the ground, but then you need to do some very awkward ‘surgery’ on the crown to make it look respectable so I tended to keep them in pots and bring them on more naturally, although I did have a couple of respectable specimens that I’d bought and the pots were almost as much as the trees :shock: I did some reasonable stuff with garden centre stock (no pics though as it was a while ago). Interesting though, to see you’ve used the proper granular bonsai ‘soil’ which I used to use but I recollect it was quite expensive.

A couple of years ago I read the book on ‘Cherry’ Ingram by Naoko Abe and a fascinating read it was too. When we used to live in New Romney, I used to drive back to my parents place in Surrey via Benenden so I must have driven past his front door dozens of times. This was long before the M25 was built and Ashford was a quiet little Kent town; apparently it’s changed a bit! :lol: - Rob
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jul 2021, 19:36

Yes Bob, I do use proper Japanese Akadama "soil" and also Japanese Kyodama grit, both of which are imported from Japan and available on line. They come in big 20kg bags and are not silly money as I don't need much. I also make my own compost to emulate the rich black soil of Japan, for the bonsai I am trying to create. I tend to get sphagnum moss from my next door neighbour who has loads in her woodland, and we also have Heron's bonsai not far away if I need anything out of the ordinary.

I probably start off about 6 acer, 6 pine, 4 creeping juniper (blue and green carpet) and about 20 ilex crenata and a few other things like flowering azaleas for training, and groups such as small dawn redwood forests, each year. Some get sold at our garden openings (in training pots) and these more than pay for the entire stock. Most things get started off in ordinary clay plant pots before frost pruning and potting on.

Totally agree that genuine Japanese ceramic pots are very expensive now, and even Chinese ones are no longer cheap. But all of my bonsai are outdoor and I tend to go for robust pots for the trees that I see as being long term keepers.

I just do this for fun when I am sat in the outdoor kitchen waiting for the BBQ to do its thing. Feel free to come and have a look if you are ever in Kent.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby heimlaga » 02 Jul 2021, 20:42

Here in Österbotten it was common in the old days to just lay the first course of wall logs on the ground and build the log walls from that. Then some soil was banked up against the inside of the wall and some against the outside. The ground inside was covered by some roughly hewn boards laid directly on top of the soil and the earthen banks inside was built in with benches all around the room.
The result was a totally draught free floor........ but the house rotted out in a few decades.

Therefore the very few farm houses still standing from the mid 17th century or before have all been taken down and reassembled atop a stone foundation when such became common starting in the late 17th century. The last houses without foundation were probably built in the mid 18th century. It was just a too laborious way of maintaining a roof over one's head.

However plenty of outbuildings have until recent times been built on foundations consisting of just a few builders here and there to support the sill. Log walls and even many earlier types of framed walls are good at spreading the load and if a boulder settles one can easily jack up the building and add some wedges.
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Re: Why do we make foundations for building?

Postby Woodbloke » 03 Jul 2021, 09:23

AJB Temple wrote:Feel free to come and have a look if you are ever in Kent.


…and the same Adrian. I you’re ever ‘cruising’ :eusa-whistle: down the A303, turn left at the ‘rocks’ and head towards Salisbury, but turn left at the Countess roundabout before you get to them and head south through Amesbuy. You definitely don’t want to get stuck in traffic going past the bloody things :evil: - Rob
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