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4 panel door proportions

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4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jan 2022, 15:17

I could do with some guidance with proportions of a 4 panel door that I need to make.
I'm reasonably adept at joining bit of wood together but I have no artistic skills to decide on proportions that will look "right" to others.

This is the door I'm proposing

4 panel door.jpg
(18.3 KiB)


About the only constraint I have is the position of the centre rail so that it aligns with a nearby waist rail feature.
Looking at pictures on line it seems to be the convention top have the rails with increasing width from top to bottom and possibly the top rail the same width as the stiles.

So relative to the stile width of say 100-110mm, what widths should I use for:-

Centre rail,
Bottom rail
Muntin
Any guidance, rules of thumb etc will be most welcome.

Thanks
Bob
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Robert » 03 Jan 2022, 15:31

I'm looking at the 6 panel doors upstairs here in my 1930's house and they are all the other way up to your drawing with the longer panels at the bottom.

the door heights vary but a typical bottom cross rail is 200mm wide. middle 180mm and top same as sides at 105mm
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Argus » 03 Jan 2022, 15:40

Aesthetically, from the measurements you've given, you already have close to a ratio of 8:13, both on the position of the stile in relation to the two halves of the door and the overall rectangular dimension of the door.

This is simply put 1: 1:625........ or 8:13 sometimes called the "golden mean".

There's a lot of complex maths about it on line, Wiki etc., but this is a simple explanation:
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/15340454950676895/

Personally, I think that the eye is very forgiving and doesn't need complications.
In this case it sees a rectangle of those proportions (the whole door) composed of two rectangles (the upper part and the lower part separated by the cross-rail) each in the same broad ratio.

From what you said about the center rail lining up with an adjacent rail, the original designer of the house may have already built this into the main proportions.

I think that you already have the solution in hand.

Good luck
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby PAC1 » 03 Jan 2022, 16:24

I would agree, do not change a thing. Your Muntin might be around 80mm wide but I tend to machine them up ex 100 and then reduce them to what looks a good balance for both top and bottom panels. Given the length of the top panel I would expect it to be nearer 96 then 75.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jan 2022, 16:45

Thanks all for your comments. Reassuring to know that I'm not too far away.

@Argus
The 770mm rail height was of my doing but not mathematically based.
This is where the door will go on the far right.

location of 770mm rail.jpg
(50.37 KiB)


The position was driven by the desire to keep the joint in red simple but now I can claim the door was based on the golden ratio and that in turn set the 770mm rail height :lol:

Now I can work out how much oak I will need and see how much of a limb donation I will need to budget for :lol:

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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Argus » 03 Jan 2022, 21:02

Arriving at those proportions without planning is Serendipity in the true sense of the word............... either that or you've reinvented visual harmony without realizing.

:eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:


Good luck with saving up for the wood. Decent stuff has gone off the bloody radar these days.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jan 2022, 21:16

Argus wrote:Arriving at those proportions without planning is Serendipity in the true sense of the word............... either that or you've reinvented visual harmony without realizing.

:eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: :eusa-clap:


Good luck with saving up for the wood. Decent stuff has gone off the bloody radar these days.


Its pure luck. My design skills from my job in applied research are all derived from achieving the end goal within fixed constraints whether it be wood, metal, electronics software etc. Any artistic threads if they ever existed were drawn out and removed from me at birth.
The project that you see in the photo has been made from freecycled oak flooring and a stash of oak construction veneer given to me from a forum member.

Cheers
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Doug71 » 03 Jan 2022, 22:33

I was once told the traditional way to set out a 4 panel door is that the top edge of the lock rail (centre rail) should be halfway up the door. Don't know if it's true or not but to me this looks right so that's what I do if nothing else dictates the height of the lock rail.

Please ignore this if it doesn't match the plans for your door......
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jan 2022, 23:02

Thanks Doug.
Always useful to collect these little guidelines.

Bob
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby AJB Temple » 04 Jan 2022, 00:07

What jumps out at me Bob is the top rail, being narrower than the stiles, automatically makes me think the door has been cut down, so personally I would adjust that a bit.

Look forward to seeing the finished product. KR, Adrian
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 04 Jan 2022, 11:45

AJB Temple wrote:What jumps out at me Bob is the top rail, being narrower than the stiles, automatically makes me think the door has been cut down, so personally I would adjust that a bit.

Look forward to seeing the finished product. KR, Adrian


The diagram I posted was rough drawn for the purposes of provoking comment and guidelines for the width of the various components. I also continued to search online which found several references to stile width of 105mm, not 100, not 4" but 105mm so I've adopted that. Also that the top rail should be equal to the stiles.
Bottom rail should be wider so I went for the golden ratio (1.618:1) thus around 170mm which to me looked better than 200.
Someone advocated the centre rail to be the average of top and bottom so 140. I perhaps thought as ratios were advocated by some that the centre rail might be best using the geometric mean of the top and bottom 133 which would bring in the square root of the golden ratio but I found no references at all to that so I've stuck with the arithmetic mean.

4 panel door v2.jpg
(29.15 KiB)


In the spirit of always trying to stretch my skills I will be using bolection mouldings around the panels so I need to allow a bit extra wood on the order.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and support.

Bob

Here is the version I expect to be working with - certainly good enough for ordering the oak.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby AJB Temple » 04 Jan 2022, 13:24

"Bolection". Had long forgotten that word, so just had to look it up. :oops:
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Andyp » 04 Jan 2022, 13:49

for the benefit of the rest of us :)

bolection.png
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I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Cabinetman » 04 Jan 2022, 13:55

The Golden Square/mean thingy maybe a mathematical job but try this simple exercise, it’s the one we did when I and about 20 others arrived at College, we were asked to divide a 6 inch line into two pleasing parts. We all got it to within a quarter of an inch of each other. The human eye is quite good enough for this sort of thing usually. Ian
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby AndyT » 04 Jan 2022, 18:24

According to the old Woodworker book on Door Making, from about 1914, the proportions of the components have a much more practical origin than the application of any advanced geometry. The anonymous author comments that there are a few common standard sizes such as 6' 6" x 2' 6" or 2' 8".

He also says:

"Panel doors are sometimes described as "batten," "deal," and "plank," framing, meaning that 7-in., 9-in., or 11-in. rails and 3½-in., 4½-in., and 5½-in. stiles, top rails and muntins, respectively are used."

So it was the standard sizes of sawn softwood that set the sizes of the component parts. The work of making a door included - naturally - rip sawing from battens, deal or planks and planing up the finished surfaces.

Walter Rose in "The Village Carpenter" described making a plain four panel door by hand like this as "a good day's work."

Not long ago, Richard Arnold did an experiment to see if he could do the same and make a door in a day. He wrote it up in "Mortise and Tenon" magazine and - I think - on Instagram. He did it, not all in one go, but with a total time of 10½ hours - a good day's work indeed.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Malc2098 » 04 Jan 2022, 18:31

I used to sell Metco (Merchant Trading Company, Adrienne Avenue, Southall, beside the Grand Union Canal) doors back in the 60s. I used to know all the sizes and pattern codes, but the most popular sizes on modern (post war) houses were 6'6" x 2'6", 6'8" x 2'8", and on older houses 7' x 3'.

As a result and because on Barry Bucknell, :D we also sold the equivalent sizes of Royal Board hardboard.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 16 Jan 2022, 14:03

I'm proposing haunched, blind M&T joints for the rails and stiles of my door.

The tenon widths vary 60-80-125 for the top, middle and bottom rails.
Is 125mm too wide for a single tenon and I should consider two 50mm tenons with a 25mm haunch between.

I'm not concerned about weakening the stiles as the mortises will be blind but more about movement issues.

TIA
Bob
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Trevanion » 16 Jan 2022, 16:07

9fingers wrote:I'm proposing haunched, blind M&T joints for the rails and stiles of my door.

The tenon widths vary 60-80-125 for the top, middle and bottom rails.
Is 125mm too wide for a single tenon and I should consider two 50mm tenons with a 25mm haunch between.

I'm not concerned about weakening the stiles as the mortises will be blind but more about movement issues.


Usually, you'd have a haunch at the bottom of the door too so that it isn't effectively a bridle joint at the bottom which can be liable to splaying open (but since this is an internal door with blind mortices this isn't likely to happen). I would personally go for a 20mm haunch at the bottom and then split the two mortices and the haunch in between into 35mm sections. Or alternatively, you could put a larger haunch at the bottom and just have one large tenon, it won't make much difference and it would be a bit easier to make.
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby 9fingers » 16 Jan 2022, 17:21

Thanks Dan,
My lower rail plan was to use a haunch of 30mm. The rail is 170mm wide with a 15mm deep groove for panel retention leaving a possible 125mm for the tenon. I'm planning 65mm deep mortise into the stile.

like so
tenon 1.png
(6.5 KiB)


If as you suggest I increase the haunch at the expense of the tenon, what would you suggest 50-50? or still favour the tenon to an extent?

Apologies for the rather clumsy drawing - still trying to get to grips with Libre office draw and bully it into behaving like visio :lol:

Bob
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Re: 4 panel door proportions

Postby Trevanion » 16 Jan 2022, 23:38

Ah, I see! I didn't realise you had already incorporated a haunch at the bottom. In that case, I would definitely divide the 125mm that's left into three, mostly just because that's the way I've always done it. You could probably get away with putting a 60mm haunch at the bottom and then a 95mm tenon left behind.
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