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Arched raised panel

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Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2022, 10:21

This is an extremely traditional shape, but I have no idea how it would have been made in the old days. Here is an example on the back of my chair mock-up:

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I couldn't picture how this could be done with hand tools only, so I ran a cove cutter in my router around a form, and cleaned up by hand. I've no problem doing that when it comes to the production run*, but I am curious how this might have been done by hand.

* This produces a raised and field panel, and I'd prefer just a raised panel.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby AndyT » 27 Jan 2022, 10:31

A question I have wondered about too but never found answered in any book.

Fortunately, we have Roy Underhill to show us the way, using a hand router plane and chisels.

https://video.pbsnc.org/video/the-woodw ... rd-part-1/
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2022, 10:46

Interesting. Thanks Andy. Pity it was so rushed at the end, the bit I was interested in, but it was simpler than you'd think.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Cabinetman » 27 Jan 2022, 11:16

"This produces a raised and field panel, and I'd prefer just a raised panel."
You’ve got me wondering there Mike, I always thought the field was the flat area in the centre of the panel and the 90°Rebate/ step up to it is the raised bit, compared to just a slope which meets the flat area so no "raising". Quite willing to accept that I’ve been wrong all this time, or is it one of those, depends where you come from things. Tim time to get your book out again lol
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby PAC1 » 27 Jan 2022, 18:02

In the pre spindle or electric router days, by hand with chisel and mallet. You might be able to clean up bits with a block plane or rebate plane. One of my wooden rebate planes will cut across grain as long as it is set very fine, but I have not tried it on a tightly curved panel. A curved or dished rebate might work better from the point of getting away with a bit of irregularity.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 27 Jan 2022, 19:54

Thanks Peter.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby droogs » 27 Jan 2022, 20:35

A rebate plane, hollows and rounds and cleaned up with a shaped scraper
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby AJB Temple » 27 Jan 2022, 20:37

It does tend to have a "machine made" look about it. My own sense of aesthetics is that using this tool in the final product will look distinctly repro rather than having the appearance of Elizabethan era furniture, which was the effect I thought you were aiming for.

Do you have the book "Medieval Furniture - plans and instructions for historical reproductions" by Daniel Diehj and Mark P. Donnely, with forward by Roy Underhill?

It's quite good Mike. Has a fair amount of carving in it, with methods, that seeks to show how original furniture was made. It's published in the US by Stackpole.

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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Trevanion » 27 Jan 2022, 21:06

Cabinetman wrote:"This produces a raised and field panel, and I'd prefer just a raised panel."
You’ve got me wondering there Mike, I always thought the field was the flat area in the centre of the panel and the 90°Rebate/ step up to it is the raised bit, compared to just a slope which meets the flat area so no "raising". Quite willing to accept that I’ve been wrong all this time, or is it one of those, depends where you come from things. Tim time to get your book out again lol


You've got me wondering there too Ian, I've always thought a raised panel was shaped across its entire face, typically bevel flats planed to a point in the middle of the panel, with a raised fielded panel being one that's moulded around its edges but has a flat portion in the middle called the "fielding" like in Mike's photo. You don't really see the old style of panel where the entirety of it has been shaped as it would be a difficult operation by machine (I have done it on the surface planer before for a beveled panel) these days with the most common panel now being the raised and fielded panel.

I'll have to look through my books and see what they were called properly in days gone by.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Cabinetman » 27 Jan 2022, 22:53

Yes thanks, I think that’s where the truth will lie – in the old books. Ian
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Doug71 » 27 Jan 2022, 22:58

I think of a raised panel as being a panel that has a shallow bevel around the edge, not that decorative really but means you can fit a thicker panel into a thinner groove. The bevel might be for example 2" all the way around leaving a flat in the middle of the panel.

A raised and fielded panel is when the flat in the middle of the raised panel "sticks out a bit" for want of a better phrase. The sticky out bit can be square edged like a rebate, a cove as in Mikes example or sometimes a mould made up of different shapes.

Will be interested to know the proper definitions as I wanted to describe a raised and fielded panel as a raised panel which is raised in the middle, that just sounds wrong :eusa-doh:
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Trevanion » 28 Jan 2022, 00:51

So, hijacking Mike's thread... Here's what some authors said about raised panels:

The British Standards Institution in "A Glossary of Terms Relating to Timber and Woodwork" 1963 states "Raised Panel: A panel having, on one or both sides bevelled surfaces rising to an apex or ridge at the centre of the panel" "Raised and Fielded Panel: A panel having on one or both sides, a centre plane surface (Field or Fielding) surrounded by a spayed margin (Raising) receding to the face of the tongue securing the panel to the frame"

J.W. Riley in "A Manual of Carpentry and Joinery" 1947 states, "When the panel is thicker in the middle than at the edges so that the middle part is above the general surface, it is known as a raised or fielded panel"

Thomas Corkhill in "Joinery and Carpentry" 1948 states "The raising on the panel may be varied in many ways. The usual method is shown at A, but an alternative very often used is shownt at B, this is a fielded panel" the illustration of A shows a panel which is pointed in the middle having the whole face worked, but the illustration of B shows a rebated panel with a cockbead pinned around it.

Thomas Corkhill in "A Glossary of Wood" 1948 states that a raised panel is "One thicker at the middle than at the edges, for strength and ornamentation, see fielded panel" and a fielded panel is "A raised panel with a wide flat surface or one broken up into smaller panels"

George Ellis in "Modern Practical Joinery" 1902 states "Raised Panels - When the centre part of the panel is thicker than the margin. there are four varieties of raised panels :- 1: The Chamfered, in this the panel is chamfered down equally all round from the centre to the edge when square or from a central ridge if rectangular. 2: Raised and Flat or Chamfered and Fielded, when a chamfer is worked all round the edge, leaving a flat in the centre."

So the consensus seems to be that standard raised panels come to an apex at the centre of the panel from the edges, where the raised and fielded has a chamfer or moulding around the edge and a flat raised area in the centre of the panel.

How does that help Mike with a curved panel? It doesn't :lol: When I get a bit more time I'll delve into the really old tomes where things were made by hand tools predominantly and perhaps that will shine a light on it.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Cabinetman » 28 Jan 2022, 01:29

Thanks Trevanian, that was quick, I can’t say I’m fully clear yet and it appears that, just as now, people describe panels pretty much as makes sense to them which is probably why I came up with how I describe them, perhaps I haven’t fully understood – I shall have to read it again. Ian
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 28 Jan 2022, 09:09

Trevanion wrote:So, hijacking Mike's thread... Here's what some authors said about raised panels.....


Thanks Dan, that's really useful and interesting. For a start, it shows my useage and understanding of the terms was completely wrong, which doesn't surprise me for a second! As an auto-didact, my teaching on woodwork has been extremely patchy. My 3 board doors, then, have the middle board raised, but not fielded.

I always thought the difference was in the transition from the slopy part to the flat part, which can be done with just 2 planed faces meeting (not the easiest of skills, that), or with a little step as you get with a panel raising bit in a router or spindle moulder. It clearly isn't.

I noticed in the video Andy posted that the tongue Roy Underhill made was just a continuation of the slope of the slopy part he planed and chiselled into shape, rather than making any attempt to flatten out into a tongue. In other words, his panel wedges into the grooves in the frame, rather than slots in. That's far easier to make, but far easier to get wrong (too loose in the grooves).
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby kirkpoore1 » 28 Jan 2022, 14:54

Mike G wrote:
I noticed in the video Andy posted that the tongue Roy Underhill made was just a continuation of the slope of the slopy part he planed and chiselled into shape, rather than making any attempt to flatten out into a tongue. In other words, his panel wedges into the grooves in the frame, rather than slots in. That's far easier to make, but far easier to get wrong (too loose in the grooves).


Since the panel has to be a little loose to allow for expansion, I don't see that as a big issue. If it's so loose that it moves too much in and out (as opposed to side-to-side), I suppose you could glue some shims on the inside face of the panel next to the edge to take up the slack. I've had cases where I botched the groove in the rail or stile and made it too wide, but the panel has never fallen out.

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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 28 Jan 2022, 15:44

I always glue my panels for an inch or two on the centreline of the long-grain of the panel, which reduces the chance of that embarassing rattling around than can happen otherwise.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby AndyT » 28 Jan 2022, 17:02

Mike, looking back at your routed trial piece, I'd like to echo Adrian's comment about how it looks too much machine made. The appeal of the other furniture that you have built and shared on here is that it doesn't look machined at all and has the subtle variations of hand work.

I am sure you are aware of this and will come up with an honest solution that doesn't remind anyone of kitchen cupboards!

I've had a browse through books and photos here trying to help but have failed to come up with anything comparable or useful. Nevertheless I'll just offer one snap - from the Red Lodge in Bristol - showing the back of a much more elaborate chair, with some lovely free gouge work on it, which just happens to be in front of some oak wall panelling with arched heads. They seem to have a very narrow, sharp chamfer where the panel fits into the groove. Not sure if this helps, but I hope it's another reference point to help your planning.

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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 28 Jan 2022, 17:09

Brilliant, Andy, thanks. When I next visit Bristol, I hope I can persuade you to take me around the Red Lodge.

Although my radius is pretty small, I think I can do it with a plane. If I can get a rebate plane tuned up nicely I could perhaps use a form as a guide, otherwise, as always, it's just a case of marking up the two edges and removing the stuff between.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby PAC1 » 28 Jan 2022, 17:10

I agree with Andy T. I might have been to subtle in my earlier comment. The machined panel is well just that a machined panel with crisp edges.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 28 Jan 2022, 17:40

PAC1 wrote:I agree with Andy T. I might have been to subtle in my earlier comment. The machined panel is well just that a machined panel with crisp edges.


Indeed. If you saw the state if this mock-up you'd know that aesthetics weren't really a consideration. It's rubbish! It's all about processes and geometry. I've already made a good number of decisions as a result of making it.....but I haven't sat in it yet, so there'll be more, no doubt. One of the firm decisions, though, is that the splat panel will be thinner than I've made it, and will be raised and fielded by hand. The one slight complication is that the two carvers will have a Tudor Rose carved on the back of the panel, so I need enough thickness to cope with that.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby AndyT » 28 Jan 2022, 17:54

Mike G wrote:Brilliant, Andy, thanks. When I next visit Bristol, I hope I can persuade you to take me around the Red Lodge.


I'd love to - I am sure you would find a lot to appreciate, even if it's a bit later than Tudor, like this sort of simple gouge cut decoration

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or this rather ambitious carved chair

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According to the Bristol Council website, it should be opening again in April this year https://www.bristolmuseums.org.uk/red-lodge-museum/
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby kirkpoore1 » 28 Jan 2022, 20:48

I really admire the skill of these wood carvers. But man, I am just not a fan of 17th century furniture design.

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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Jan 2022, 21:56

I possibly lacked a but of tact with my remark about machine made repro look. :oops: There is no point being too purist with dining chairs though. In the Tudor / Elizabethan period hardly any house would have a set of dining chairs, and especially not a matched set. Manor house dining tables would have had a proper chair such as the carver that we would recognise today, for the master and maybe mistress of the house, and maybe a side chair or two, but everyone else sat at bench seats, or stools and sometimes backless chests.

Matched sets seem to be a fairly modern phenomenon and seem to be uncommon prior to the 18th Century.

I'm interested in this project as I do have a Tudor period table, but no chairs. We actually have modern upholstered chairs in the dining area at present, though I do have a set of late 18th C chairs in the loft. They definitely don't go with old english oak. So I shall see how you get on Mike and might copy some construction ideas, though if I do this I will deliberately not make a matched set and will almost certainly incorporate a bench on one side.
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Re: Arched raised panel

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2022, 08:16

AJB Temple wrote:.....Matched sets seem to be a fairly modern phenomenon and seem to be uncommon prior to the 18th Century.....


True, but the date I am aiming to match is the date this house was built......1700 plus or minus 5 years. A full set of chairs wasn't unheard of then. Indeed, it was an auction item I saw online which set me on this path 3 or 4 years ago. They had a full set of 6 side chairs and 2 carvers for sale, dating from 1720, from memory. I pretty much just copied those, with a couple of tweaks.

Fun fact. Victor Chinnery, in that excellent book you recommended, calls these "jointed back stools". I guess this is to distinguish them from turned chairs.
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