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Advice and opinions please

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Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 14 May 2021, 18:25

The saga of my dining table is reaching its climactic end (hooray said the gallery :eusa-clap: :eusa-dance: ).
But I would appreciate a little clarification.
I'm roughly following this method of fixing the two end boards.
https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/ ... -end-joint
But not faithfully.
But due to circumstances beyond my control, Instead of three deeper tenons I have a full width tenon of 35 mm depth to get the maximum strength.

The guide says to only glue the centre tenon, but in my mind thats JUST the tenon and i'm not convinced thats enough. My plan is to make the three dowels 10 mm diameter from oak offcuts from the table as I dont want to make a feature of them.

Finally the questions; I feel that I should glue the middle third of the table tenon. Yes / no?
Do the dowels actually need a wedge. yes / no?

The guide says to have the mortice (rebate?) all the way through the end boards and have the table sticking out a bit. I think thats a horrible idea. I want to have the mortice 10 mm wider each end than the tenon to allow for expansion (still not convinced about that, mind), but the sides to be fully enclosed. Yes / no?
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby NickM » 14 May 2021, 18:52

When you say full width tenon, do you mean that it's effectively a tongue on the ends of the board which go into a groove on the breadboard end?

I think that should be OK.

I would glue a small section in the middle (2 inches perhaps?) and also have a peg there which is through a hole in the tongue that matches the peg. That peg can also be glued in position.

For the outer pegs, you need an elongated hole in the tongue so that the tongue can move. Those pegs should also not be glued to the tongue. They can be glued to the breadboard end, but you need to take care not to get glue all the way through,

I don't see why the pegs would need wedges.

I think Rob Cosman (welcome to my shop) has done a video on exactly what you're planning. I'll see if I can find it...
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby NickM » 14 May 2021, 18:55

Here's the Rob Cosman video: https://youtu.be/cLuDMsRokgA
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 14 May 2021, 20:20

i think you have the wrong utube link
yes, full width tongue, with a 5 mm space each end for expansion.
Bear in mind this is being assembled in 30c temps, although very dry at the moment.
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby NickM » 14 May 2021, 20:33

sunnybob wrote:i think you have the wrong utube link
yes, full width tongue, with a 5 mm space each end for expansion.
Bear in mind this is being assembled in 30c temps, although very dry at the moment.


Yes, completely wrong link!! Try this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kG0Zq-6Ips

You still need elongated holes for the pegs otherwise you're 5mm gaps won't help because the panel is constrained by the pegs.
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 14 May 2021, 21:12

Yes, the picture in the link explains the slots. i can do those.
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 14 May 2021, 21:18

HaH! I invented that and he copied me :lol:

Seriously, the man needs a router table. What a faff cutting the groove that way. 8-) 8-)
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 16 May 2021, 13:33

Another step closer today, finally got the breadboard ends on and dowelled. I used beech 8 mm dowels because thats what I had. Three at each end.
But I dont like dowels sticking through the top, it doesnt look right to me. So I drilled blind holes from underneath, tapped the dowels 5 mm below the surface, and used oak plugs to hide them. Thats gone pretty well. :eusa-dance:
I glued the middle 6" of the tongue and the central peg, but left the rest as a friction fit. The two side dowels on each end are in slots that will allow 5 mm movement in either direction, but the tongue does not break through the edge of the table.
I cramped the table up pretty tight before drilling for the dowels. Had to use 3 x 3 timbers screwed to my bench, with the wall as the back cramp and sliding wedges at the front.

The butt joints are not 100% though, Without gluing them I can see the join. But once the table is back in everyday use It should not be an issue.
I still have the two leaves to build, and then all the finishing, way more than I wanted to do, but needs must.
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby NickM » 16 May 2021, 14:32

Sounds like good progress, but without photos I'm going to assume you're making this all up...
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 16 May 2021, 15:17

i know, I'm a bad boy. :shock:
But my LG phone just is so much of a pain to download pics from that I never bother with it.
Which means I have to get the canon DSLR out of its storage bag in the wardrobe, then take the pic, then connect manually to the laptop and go through a half dozen options that I just cant be bothered.
Then of course when I type my messages its after I have closed up the workshop for the day.
Is that enough excuses? :lol:
I do always take pics of my finished work though, so just consider the pics are in the post. 8-) 8-)
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby 9fingers » 16 May 2021, 16:20

I just email pics from my phone to get them onto the laptop. Would that work for you SB?

Bob
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 16 May 2021, 16:42

god no. :shock:
I spent 20 years as a slave to a mobile phone. all hours of the day and sometimes even night. "Come now! fix this!, fix that!, stop what youre doing and drive a 150 miles NOW because this is more important!".
When i retired I de-stressed and also retired the mobile. Its now 7 years old and not even internet connected. I dont normally carry it around (to be honest, I leave it at home even when I really should have it as an emergency device) and everyone who knows me knows that a text message might be several days in the seeing of. :lol: :lol:
And the DSLR is about a similar vintage (cable connection only).
i like being (almost) stone age. :eusa-dance: :eusa-clap:
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 17 May 2021, 15:10

Due to intense public pressure, I have at great personal cost found my DSLR.
So here be pictures.
Warning, these pictures are NOT a set of "look how clever I am", more a set of " I've managed to get most of the problems solved but nobody believes me" :eusa-naughty: :eusa-violin:

#Pic 1, this is the underside, after rebuilding. Its shrunk from 1.5 metres down to 1.1m
I've replaced the MDF centre panel with 6 oak planks 24 mm thick.
IMG_3218.JPG
(218.5 KiB)


Pic 2, is the top, ready for final sanding with 240 grit.
IMG_3217.JPG
(248.63 KiB)


Pic 3, A question on this one, these clips hold the top to the apron. When I took it apart the clips were screwed to the apron as well as the top. Should I still screw to the apron? I thought the claws were sufficient. There will be 10 of these in place when the table is finished.
IMG_3219.JPG
(247.17 KiB)
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby 9fingers » 17 May 2021, 15:25

Yes screw to the apron as otherwise under extremes of shrinkage, your table top might become detached.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 17 May 2021, 17:17

OK, I can do that.
I'm really curious about the "shrinkage /expansion" thing. Im going to take measurements throughout the year to see if it actually does, or not. :lol:
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby 9fingers » 17 May 2021, 17:25

sunnybob wrote:OK, I can do that.
I'm really curious about the "shrinkage /expansion" thing. Im going to take measurements throughout the year to see if it actually does, or not. :lol:


When you fit your screws in the slots, try and place them centrally along the length and use that as a datum to see if you are getting any movement from time to time. Unlikely to see anything along the grain but when you have the special SB force field switched off you might see something on the cross grain clips.

Of course the other indication will be any step plus or minus, measurable by fingernail at the end of the breadboard ends

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby NickM » 17 May 2021, 17:27

It looks good to me! You got some nice oak boards by the look of it.

I made an art desk for my daughter (there was a thread on the other place) which has a central panel which can be lifted up like and easel. The panel has breadboard ends to keep it flat. The boards have shrunk by around 2mm since I've had it in doors and it's about 600mm.

IMG_0027.jpeg
(229.23 KiB)


I need to keep an eye on its movements. I'll probably end up take a few shavings off the end grain of the breadboard ends, because I don't think it will expand in the other direction.
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Re: Advice and opinions please

Postby sunnybob » 18 May 2021, 05:33

The clips are slotted so t will be easy ( :lol: ) to get the screws central. I realised just in time that there are even 2 types of clips, some of them have sideways slots for the end boards.

I am really pleased with these oak boards, got them from a shop I dont normally buy hard woods from. Every one straight and clean, and not too expensive. I think the top and the 2 leaves will work out about 100 euros worth.
I ended up gluing the middle 200 mm of the 900 wide ends. The end dowels have 5 or 6 mm of movement both ways. One of the corner end joints is a bit gappy but theres nothing I can do about it now.
I will make the breadboard ends exactly in line with the sides, and see what happens.
Big day today, I am hoping to get the underside and edges completely finished with 2 coats of shellac, so I can rebuild the table, then final sanding on the top, with 3 coats of shellac and a couple of polyurethane gloss. 8-)
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