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Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

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Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 26 Mar 2021, 09:36

Paring chisels generally have a lower bevel angle than bench chisels. This is obviously helpful if you're going through end grain. Therefore, I wonder if a secondary bevel on a PC is desirable as it steepens the bevel a bit.

It's not exactly a massive effort to have the whole bevel on the stone when sharpening. Therefore I've been thinking about binning the secondary bevel on my paring chisel in order to maximise the benefit of a low angle bevel.

Any views?
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Mike G » 26 Mar 2021, 10:07

It's all very marginal, Andy. A few degrees here and there makes no difference. It's a pain trying to hone the whole face, but a useful compromise might be if you have a hollow ground principle bevel, when honing "flat" on the stone would produce a secondary bevel by default.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Woodbloke » 26 Mar 2021, 11:13

My Japanese paring and dovetail chisels are ground at 20deg and honed at 25 and are strictly for use without a tapometer; that few degrees for hand paring does make a difference - Rob
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 26 Mar 2021, 13:09

Thanks for the replies.

My paring chisel with secondary bevel does work of course so I don't suppose it's such a big deal.

As for hollow ground: nice idea but that would involve an investment in a Tormek or similar system. I don't suppose there are any hand powered grinding wheels available these days. I don't say that out of tight fistedness but rather because I try to avoid machines where reasonably possible.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Vann » 02 May 2021, 05:54

I use a hand crank grinder for grinding my chisels and plane irons. It has one of those Lee Valley/Veritas tool stands.

For bevel down plane irons I grind at 25 and hone at 30 degrees.

But for chisels that aren't beaters I experiment with angles. A potential paring chisel I might grind at 20 and hone at 25, or even 23 degrees. Sure beats trying to get the whole bevel at 25/23 degrees!

If the steel won't hold an edge at that angle I just hone steeper bevels until I find an angle that won't collapse (and find another chisel for paring). I'm too tight to buy real paring chisels.

I keep a note book detailing what bevels are on what chisels (as i use training wheels I just note the settings on the V mk2 guide).

HTH.

Cheers, Vann.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 02 May 2021, 06:13

Hi Vann,

that's useful info.

If I ever see a decent hand grinder offered by one of the good second hand dealers, I will snap it up. It's another tool that I think modern manufacturers could consider offering. A foot-powered one would be really brilliant.

Andy.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Alf » 02 May 2021, 07:30

Hold out for one with a 6" wheel, Andy, then the grinding wheel world is the mollusc of your choice. I know of folks that have rigged up a hand-cranked to a foot pedal, but it's not impossible to get the technique of grinding with one hand while guiding the blade with the other. Are you good at patting your head whilst rubbing your stomach? :D Oh look, a very old blog post on how I do it. That's handy for when I have to relearn it again...
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 02 May 2021, 08:54

Thanks for the tip, Alf. 6" is it then. I reckon I probably could manage it one handed but I think it would be great if a treadle-based kit were available that one could build into a home-made grinding table, in much the same way that decent vices are available. But that's not going to happen, so I'll continue to keep an eye on the websites.

I remember you from the other place and I must say that as a beginner, I found your tool reviews to be very helpful. I presume that you ended up owning everything that Veritas ever made! Good to see you here.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Vann » 02 May 2021, 10:03

It was Alf who (unknowlingly?) encouraged me to use a hand cranked grinder - well Alf and the fact that I burned a few blades on the powered grinder :oops:

I remember asking Alf about why she cranks with the hand she does. I'm right handed. I crank with my right hand and move the blade with my left. IIRC Alf does the opposite.

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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby AndyT » 02 May 2021, 10:15

Andy Kev. wrote:I think it would be great if a treadle-based kit were available that one could build into a home-made grinding table


Just thinking about what would need to be in such a kit... I think all the bits are pretty widely available or could be easily improvised without welding or special tools.
Some plywood, threaded rod, a coarse grinding wheel, some thick dished washers, a few bearings or plummer blocks.
You could look at treadle powered grinders in old catalogues for ideas.

Another tack would be to use bits of a scrap bicycle. The online museum of foot powered machinery could help:

http://www.footpoweredmachinery.com/man ... rpolisher/
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Alf » 02 May 2021, 11:48

Andy Kev. wrote:I presume that you ended up owning everything that Veritas ever made! Good to see you here.


Thank you, and I wish!

Vann wrote:It was Alf who (unknowlingly?) encouraged me to use a hand cranked grinder - well Alf and the fact that I burned a few blades on the powered grinder :oops:

I remember asking Alf about why she cranks with the hand she does. I'm right handed. I crank with my right hand and move the blade with my left. IIRC Alf does the opposite.


We'll go with unknowingly... ;) (Although blades can be burned with a hand-cranked just as well, if you put some welly in it) As to which hand, I do it your way too, Vann. It's odd, because apart from a cricket bat, I'm very right-handed and it would seem all the wrong way round. :eusa-think:
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 02 May 2021, 13:08

AndyT wrote:
Andy Kev. wrote:I think it would be great if a treadle-based kit were available that one could build into a home-made grinding table


Just thinking about what would need to be in such a kit... I think all the bits are pretty widely available or could be easily improvised without welding or special tools.
Some plywood, threaded rod, a coarse grinding wheel, some thick dished washers, a few bearings or plummer blocks.
You could look at treadle powered grinders in old catalogues for ideas.

Another tack would be to use bits of a scrap bicycle. The online museum of foot powered machinery could help:

http://www.footpoweredmachinery.com/man ... rpolisher/


The discussion on here made me have a very quick look around the net and there are people showing how they have knocked out treadle-powered lathes, using the kind of kit you describe. Then I got thinking (not usually a good idea) and wondered that if you put the motion from the treadle through an axle gear system from a push bike - you may remember the old Sturmey Archer three speed: some modern models have many more gears - and then use a bike chain to link to the final turning bit, you really could have something quite powerful on your hands. It could be a good idea because you could go slow for grinding but at something approaching the speed of light for turning. I think I'll talk to a mate who knows about engineering to get his views on feasibility.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby AndyT » 02 May 2021, 13:10

I think I can help out with plans for that...more later!
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Alf » 02 May 2021, 13:55

Here was I thinking of a bit of string tied to the grinder handle and the other end to a piece of wood hinged to the floor...

Tsk, not like me to over-simplify. Sorry. Carry on. Somewhere round here I have a treadle wheel that I think should rejoice in the description "foot engine" that I'd mused to do something similar with. The tuit has yet to materialise. Buck and Hickman 1935 has a listing of a foot power attachment for one of the listed hand grinders, but sadly no picture. It might have been a piece of string and... No, no, sorry. Ignore me. :D
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby AndyT » 02 May 2021, 14:22

Frankly, I think Alf's stick and string could be the answer. It works for plenty of green woodworking on pole lathes.
But as I promised, here's a rather brief half-article from the Woodworker, February 1951, describing use of bits of bike for a lathe. I'm sure you could do similar for a grinder.

IMG_20210502_141611520_HDR.jpg
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IMG_20210502_141629755_HDR.jpg
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IMG_20210502_141537759.jpg
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 02 May 2021, 15:07

Thanks, Andy, that is interesting. I'll see if I can download those and print them off.

As luck would have it all my woodworking books are boxed up at the moment as I am due to move, so it will be a week or so before I can see if there's anything on this topic in the Lost Art Press edition of articles drawn from The Woodworker. I don't recall seeing anything but you never know.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby AndyT » 02 May 2021, 15:31

I hope they print out the right way up!

But your idea about the 3-speed hub sounds excellent. They would have been too new and expensive in 1951, but not now!

And as you are in Germany, you have a better chance of finding the variant with a back pedal brake in the same hub. You could build a pedal powered grinder that complies with the stopping regulations!
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Cabinetman » 02 May 2021, 19:16

Interesting and it’s got me thinking as well, I haven’t used a grind wheel for donkeys years as they go too fast and I don’t like risking blueing my plane irons etc,
If I was to put my lathe on its lowest speed I could mount a 6” grind stone on a mandrel in the chuck, it’s an engineering style one, possibly even have it running in a water bath (whilst in use) . Can anybody see any problems with this idea? Ian
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Andy Kev. » 02 May 2021, 21:09

Cabinetman wrote:Interesting and it’s got me thinking as well, I haven’t used a grind wheel for donkeys years as they go too fast and I don’t like risking blueing my plane irons etc,
If I was to put my lathe on its lowest speed I could mount a 6” grind stone on a mandrel in the chuck, it’s an engineering style one, possibly even have it running in a water bath (whilst in use) . Can anybody see any problems with this idea? Ian


I understand that the Tormek ones work by rotating slowly and having a built in water bath. Does that not mean that they guarantee no blueing? (Genuine question, but I had the impression that that is their selling point.)

So if it works for them, it should work for you. Maybe you could put a couple of ice cubes in the water to be on the safe side.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Cabinetman » 03 May 2021, 09:18

Slice of lemon?
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Alf » 03 May 2021, 10:31

Cabinetman wrote:Interesting and it’s got me thinking as well, I haven’t used a grind wheel for donkeys years as they go too fast and I don’t like risking blueing my plane irons etc,
If I was to put my lathe on its lowest speed I could mount a 6” grind stone on a mandrel in the chuck, it’s an engineering style one, possibly even have it running in a water bath (whilst in use) . Can anybody see any problems with this idea? Ian


Grit on the lathe bed/ways/wotchamacallits is the usual argument against iirc. Just out of interest, what type of wheel were you using when you last used a grinder? There were some pretty fancy new grades and bonds even 15 years ago, so goodness knows what marvels of cool grinding are available now.

And for the would-be repurposers of bicycles for tool use, I really think you should aim higher:

bicyclesaw925.jpg
Health and Safety nightmare from The Woodworker magazine in 1925
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby NickM » 03 May 2021, 10:56

Alf, that looks like a perfect suggestion for MikeG. He said in another thread that he needs a new bandsaw and we know he has lot of bicycles!
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby AndyT » 03 May 2021, 11:54

Brilliant! But how do you pedal while holding a gouge?!
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Cabinetman » 03 May 2021, 14:22

Many many years ago there used to be a guy came round with a grind wheel mounted on the front of his bicycle, and he sharpened knives and things for housewives, how he disconnected the back wheel and put the drive-through to the grindstone I can’t remember, he also had a frame/stand that propped the bike up whilst he peddled.
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Re: Secondary Bevel on Paring Chisels

Postby Cabinetman » 03 May 2021, 14:28

https://tradesmansbike.wordpress.com/19 ... er-gundle/
Seek and ye shall find, there are loads of variations, plus one with a treadle that isn’t bicycle-based
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