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The Latest from Bridge City

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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodbloke » 12 Aug 2021, 15:26

Lurker wrote:Anyone who thinks that sort of accuracy has any place in wood work is delusional.


As a matter of note, Robert Ingham (ic of all woodworking and student projects at Parnham House) works to a tolerance of 0.1mm. You’d be very hard pushed to call RI ‘delusional’

AndyT wrote:….I managed to make them all with the most basic £5 dowel guide. Where that didn't suit, I made my own jig from offcuts of wood which was perfectly adequate for the job.

I haven't made a set of chairs, but they are one sort of work where it often makes good sense to use a dowel joint rather than a mortice and tenon. But surely, for something like that, if you have the skill to make a set of chairs, you will make a jig suitable for your chosen design, not buy something elaborately adjustable which might well get in the way.

Ok, not all drilled holes are for dowels. Some will be for screws, but I can't think of any case where the position of a screw needs to be accurate to less than about a millimetre.

I have encountered one drilling job that needed precise hole locations - if you want to fit four metal pin shelf supports at opposite corners of a shelf and not have it wobble or need visible packing. (I'm thinking about a glass shelf in a bathroom cabinet.) Will it help with that job, remembering that you may want to drill the holes after the main cabinet has been assembled?

My other main misgiving is about reference surfaces. In hand tool woodwork, you have one face side and one face edge as reference surfaces. This device references off pairs of opposite surfaces. How would it work if your show face was planed flat but the under/ reverse / off side was left as sawn or split?

Even if you treat wood as if it was aluminium and "mill" all four sides, it won't necessarily stay uniformly flat or straight. A knot can still be felt as a lump and stresses released afterwards can turn straights into curves.

So maybe it would work on MDF or chipboard - but plenty of folk make their living making furniture from those at an economic rate without one. I can't help but think that its real usefulness would be vanishingly small.


This BC gizmo though is essentially a dowel jig, is it not? When Derek Jone’s rave review of the ‘Dowelmax’ jig was published in F&C some years ago, I immediately bought one. It was quite expensive at the time, but probably half the price of this jig. It’s also superbly accurate and works off one reference surface and it’s made in Canada, not China :lol: Alas, no longer available in the UK - Rob
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Lurker » 12 Aug 2021, 16:50

Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output :D
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby AndyT » 12 Aug 2021, 16:59

Woodbloke wrote:
This BC gizmo though is essentially a dowel jig, is it not? ... - Rob


That's the other odd thing about it. If it is meant as a dowel jig, it's an odd one. It only locates one hole at a time and doesn't - as far as I can see from the video - allow you to drill a hole in one board in the right place for a dowel already positioned in another one.

And if it's not for dowels, what sort of work are all those high-precision holes going to be in?
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodbloke » 12 Aug 2021, 17:03

Lurker wrote:Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output :D

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Cabinetman » 13 Aug 2021, 20:23

Woodbloke wrote:
Lurker wrote:Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output :D

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob

What on earth is he making? Sounds a bit up himself if you ask me if you have to change your shoes to enter his workshop . Do you have any links to his work please Rob?
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodbloke » 14 Aug 2021, 14:18

Cabinetman wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:
Lurker wrote:Rob,
We are talking a ten times greater tolerance.
Non the less, does mr Ingram and his students work in a humity controlled environment ? Because otherwise I can't see how he ever gets anything made.
It's difficult enough to get that tolerance with steel without factoring for temperature.
I'd love to do a quality audit on his output :D

You need to see his workshop; there are probably operating theatres that are dirtier and you aren’t allowed over the threshold wearing outdoor shoes!…so yes, it’s probably air conditioned and humidity controlled - Rob

What on earth is he making? Sounds a bit up himself if you ask me if you have to change your shoes to enter his workshop . Do you have any links to his work please Rob?

I’ve met RI a couple of times and if you have a delve into his book (‘Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking’, now out of print) you’ll see that his work is incredibly complicated; ‘wood engineering’ is a probably a better way to define it and it’s way above the standard cabinet making fare.

He was the boss at Parnham College during the 80’s and was responsible for tutoring many of the current top end makers who attended at that time. I have it on good authority that his nickname, given to him by the students, was simply ‘God’

That said, he’s a scholar and a gentleman. When his book first came out, I didn’t quite understand how to make his style of drawers, so I pinged him an email. Very shortly a reply came asking for my home ‘fone number as he said he would ring the next morning for a natter. Lo and behold, next morning at around tenish, the dog n’bone rang and it was RI. We talked for at least 40 minutes!

When I was working at Ax a few years ago, I was sat at my desk minding my own business when RI strolled through the office as he was a frequent visitor and a good mate of Ian Styles. His wife Katina has a RI dressing table and the only other one belongs to Jerry Hall of Mick Jagger fame.

If you ever get the chance to meet him, don’t under any circumstances turn it down! - Rob
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodster » 14 Aug 2021, 16:27

We commissioned a large piece of furniture to be made in three pieces. I designed the piece and drew it out on the computer and printed it out for the carpenter. When he saw it he said fine but “we don’t work to millimetres”! I said that’s fine, it’s only a guide. :D The piece came out exactly as we wanted.
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby thetyreman » 15 Aug 2021, 15:25

very odd sounding voiceover on the bridgecity video, sounds like they hired a serial killer.
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Glynne » 15 Aug 2021, 16:42

I met up with Robert and his wife at the Trentham Gardens craft fair in June.
He has now retired from cabinet making and has moved from his workshop (which he has sold complete with all equipment). He was selling several of his amazing boxes which are a mixture of precision woodwork and engineering in terms of some of the hinges and locks. Despite being a box maker myself, I was seriously tempted to buy one of his boxes which will become collectors items in the future, if not already. I didn’t in the end as it would only depress me in terms of my efforts in comparison.
I had previously met him at Art in Action at Waterperry and then as in this June he was more then happy to explain how he constructed his boxes, the tools he used and some of the jigs he made and used. A very down to earth, knowledgeable and friendly bloke.
Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Trevanion » 15 Aug 2021, 17:45

Glynne wrote:Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!


Yes, when Matt Estlea recommended the book a few years ago it instantly disappeared from all the secondhand markets overnight and some people were asking well over £100 for a copy which is insane. I bought a copy as part of a job lot (It was the other books I was more interested in) off UKW a couple of years back and I can't say I've read it more than the occasional glance but that's more my own ignorance than anything.

I think the market has settled down a bit now, while copies don't pop up often here's one that sold for £7 the other day

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cutting-edge-Cabinetmaking-Robert-Ingham-/1248004725267
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodbloke » 15 Aug 2021, 21:43

Glynne wrote:Evidently his book “Cutting Edge Cabinetmaking” is now out of print and copies are worth quite a bit - I actually have one!


I’ve got a copy too, mine’s autographed as well :D - Rob
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Andy Kev. » 16 Aug 2021, 09:32

With reference to levels of accuracy and having thought about it over the weekend: I wonder if we routinely hold a slightly contradictory position on this.

For instance, I'm typing at a desk made out of cherry where the edge joints are completely closed i.e. the tolerance level is plus/minus zero. To achieve that one usually scoops out the thinnest shaving from each edge, which introduces a sort of deviation from perfection (assuming the edge was planed perfectly flat in terms of the plane used, which is not an unreasonable assumption). We also expect zero deviation joints with e.g. mortice and tenons, dovetails etc.

However, we know that perfection is often unlikely and we don't care because we also know that most types of woods compress to a degree or expand to a degree upon gluing. Add to that planing over a joint shoving fibres into the tiniest of gaps and we end up with visual zero deviation. Therefore, we know from experience that the kinds of tolerance claimed by BC are unnecessary. Does that mean though that we should heap scorn on them?

I tend to think not because surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing. I wonder if what most gets backs up is the marketing aimed at a clearly affluent audience. But suppose that the jig in question would do away with a pillar drill ... would that not make it a flexible alternative for someone who didn't have a pillar drill?
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Doug » 16 Aug 2021, 10:12

Isn’t the thing that if you’ve done woodwork for any amount of time you will have come across tools that give such inaccurate results that even the most talented would not get on with them.
Whilst you may not need the claimed accuracy having tools that are capable of such accuracies circumvent this problem so I can see it as a valid selling point.
Personally I use a Moore & Wright inspection square in the workshop, I doubt I need this level of accuracy but it’s good to have it & gives me confidence in what ever I’m using it for.
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Just4fun » 16 Aug 2021, 10:17

Andy Kev. wrote:surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing

In what context?

For me, farting about in my home workshop, making things for my own amusement, I think the pursuit of excellence is a good thing. I usually try to do the best I possibly can, even if it regularly falls short of excellent.

For someone working in a commercial setting, things may be different. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. In that context there comes a stage when good enough is good enough because the customer won't pay extra for something better. So why pay big money for a better tool if you can't charge more for the higher-quality work it allows you to produce?
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby TrimTheKing » 16 Aug 2021, 10:42

Just4fun wrote:
Andy Kev. wrote:surely the pursuit of excellence to the nth degree cannot be a bad thing

In what context?

For me, farting about in my home workshop, making things for my own amusement, I think the pursuit of excellence is a good thing. I usually try to do the best I possibly can, even if it regularly falls short of excellent.

For someone working in a commercial setting, things may be different. The best is the enemy of the good and all that. In that context there comes a stage when good enough is good enough because the customer won't pay extra for something better. So why pay big money for a better tool if you can't charge more for the higher-quality work it allows you to produce?


But in that example the commercial guy WON'T pay for the tool, so the fact the tool exists and is expensive is of absolutely zero relevance to that guy...

The fact this tool exists has next to zero impact on my life therefore I have very little concern with its existence. I do agree with Andy Kev though, I think we as a woodworking group can be as snobbish as any other group when it comes to these things.

Is it absolutely necessary to use this tool to do high quality work? Absolutely not!

Is it possible to do high quality work using this tool? Possibly, in the right hands.

Is it a magic bullet to all hole drilling scenarios? No, absolutely not.

Will it make you a better woodworker just by owning it? Nope.

Will it make you a worse woodworker? Probably not.

If you have the money for it and enjoy approaching woodwork from a more engineering perspective do I care if you use it and find it useful? Couldn't give a monkey's!

My opinion, this group, as with nearly every forum that exists, is about opinions not facts. Some of us will find it completely unnecessary because we can do the job fine right now. Some will find the price obscene and unnecessary. Some will see it, like the design, have the money and buy it. Some of us can see both sides, not see the need for it personally and also not see any need to denigrate it. That's the spice of life I guess.
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodbloke » 16 Aug 2021, 11:40

TrimTheKing wrote:
But in that example the commercial guy WON'T pay for the tool, so the fact the tool exists and is expensive is of absolutely zero relevance to that guy...

The fact this tool exists has next to zero impact on my life therefore I have very little concern with its existence. I do agree with Andy Kev though, I think we as a woodworking group can be as snobbish as any other group when it comes to these things.

Is it absolutely necessary to use this tool to do high quality work? Absolutely not!

Is it possible to do high quality work using this tool? Possibly, in the right hands.

Is it a magic bullet to all hole drilling scenarios? No, absolutely not.

Will it make you a better woodworker just by owning it? Nope.

Will it make you a worse woodworker? Probably not.

If you have the money for it and enjoy approaching woodwork from a more engineering perspective do I care if you use it and find it useful? Couldn't give a monkey's!

My opinion, this group, as with nearly every forum that exists, is about opinions not facts. Some of us will find it completely unnecessary because we can do the job fine right now. Some will find the price obscene and unnecessary. Some will see it, like the design, have the money and buy it. Some of us can see both sides, not see the need for it personally and also not see any need to denigrate it. That's the spice of life I guess.


:text-goodpost:

Yep, for my two euros, all of those things. It’s yet another woodworking ‘gizmo’ and if you want one, can find a use for one and can afford one, then crack on! That said, like all BC stuff it’s a beautifully ‘crafted’ (doncha just hate that word :twisted: ) gizmo, but a gizmo none the less.

The first time Ax stocked their stuff was when the chopstick maker was introduced a few years ago:

https://www.axminstertools.com/bridge-c ... ter-103475

To be honest, another ‘gizmo’ but quite a fun thing which could be quite entertaining at say, a craft fair where chop sticks could be made in front of the punter’s eyes, but precious little use anywhere else. I made a couple of pairs of chopsticks for my son and they’re quite tricky to get identical as well as being difficult to plane (being tapered and very close to the bench)

But and the end of the jour, they’re like turned bowls; just how many pairs of chopsticks do you need in a house? - Rob
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby novocaine » 16 Aug 2021, 11:47

Woodbloke wrote:
TrimTheKing wrote:
The first time Ax stocked their stuff was when the chopstick maker was introduced a few years ago:

https://www.axminstertools.com/bridge-c ... ter-103475

To be honest, another ‘gizmo’ but quite a fun thing which could be quite entertaining at say, a craft fair where chop sticks could be made in front of the punter’s eyes, but precious little use anywhere else. I made a couple of pairs of chopsticks for my son and they’re quite tricky to get identical as well as being difficult to plane (being tapered and very close to the bench)

But and the end of the jour, they’re like turned bowls; just how many pairs of chopsticks do you need in a house? - Rob


I still want to make my own version of it. :lol:
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Re: The Latest from Bridge City

Postby Woodster » 16 Aug 2021, 16:55

Doug wrote:Isn’t the thing that if you’ve done woodwork for any amount of time you will have come across tools that give such inaccurate results that even the most talented would not get on with them.
Whilst you may not need the claimed accuracy having tools that are capable of such accuracies circumvent this problem so I can see it as a valid selling point.
Personally I use a Moore & Wright inspection square in the workshop, I doubt I need this level of accuracy but it’s good to have it & gives me confidence in what ever I’m using it for.


Agreed. Just because a tool is well made to tight tolerances doesn’t mean the stuff you make with them also need to be that accurate. It’s up to the user. If on the other hand the tool is badly made you may struggle to get the accuracy that you want from a job.
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