It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 19:46

New water stone

The place to talk about tools 'without tails', so come here with all your plane and chisel, burnisher and bradawl chatter.

New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 03 Jan 2022, 12:46

Up until now, I have always used the abrasive sheet on float glass sharpening method, my kit consisted of :

400/1000 Diamond stone
2500 lapping sheet https://www.axminstertools.com/hermes-s ... rit-951277
8000 lapping sheet https://www.workshopheaven.com/3m-lappi ... o-psa.html
Leather and green compound for stropping

This has always given me a really sharp edge. I would keep the strop on my bench so I could frequently strop to keep an edge so I wouldn't have to go to the sheets so often.

This worked well for me. But the one thing I didn't like, was not knowing when the sheets needed replacing. So for christmas, I asked for a 1200/8000 waterstone as I like the idea that you're always exposing new material to work with.

Specifically this one https://www.worldofsurvival.com/sharpen ... gura-id179 (with Nagura stone)

I soaked it in water for 5 minutes, flattened with my diamond 1000 stone and began to use it. The 1200 side first and then the 8000 side (preping first with the Nagura stone to build up a slurry)

First impressions are that it cuts pretty fast. But after the 8000 side, it didn't leave a polished surface like I am used to with the 8000/3micron lapping sheet. It's a very coudy dull grey. But I didn't think anything of it as I know a polished surface doesn't necessarily mean sharp.

But having done some tests, it is noticably not as sharp as my previous method. It doesn't cut arm hair, and there is more resistance when cutting paper :( .. with my previous method, I could actually cut hair straight after using the 3 micron paper (before stropping).

However, with a lot of stropping, I can get it to cut hair, so all is not lost. But I was kind of hoping I would get similar results as my previous method. I appreciate the comparison between stone grit and micron is not exact.

Have others experienced the same thing?
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Andyp » 03 Jan 2022, 12:57

Hi Ayreon and welcome to the forum.

Never used a water stone myself but I am sure others here have.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11718
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: New water stone

Postby Lurker » 03 Jan 2022, 13:07

:text-welcomewave:

Due to sharpening being rather controversial, we try to avoid discussion of the various methods.
Whatever rocks your boat is fine with us.
Lurker
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2447
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:15
Location: Loughborough
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Woodster » 05 Jan 2022, 17:08

Welcome to the forum Ayreon. It’s good to keep an open mind and very temping to try something new in the search for perfection. On this occasion it seems your original method is superior. Perhaps best to clean off that new stone and pack it away somewhere?! :lol:
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Doug » 05 Jan 2022, 19:14

Hi Ayreon,

I’ve used similar lapping sheets to you for years now, they give me the edge I’m after as quick as anything else I’ve tried, if it works for you why change.
User avatar
Doug
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2151
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 22:22
Location: @dougsworkshop
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Woodbloke » 06 Jan 2022, 14:50

Doug wrote:Hi Ayreon,

I’ve used similar lapping sheets to you for years now, they give me the edge I’m after as quick as anything else I’ve tried, if it works for you why change.


:text-+1: They work, why change? Over the decades I've used just about everything and the 3M films float my boat :D - Rob
I no longer work for Axminster Tools & Machinery.
User avatar
Woodbloke
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5866
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 10:06
Location: Salisbury, UK
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 06 Jan 2022, 18:36

Cheers guys.

Why change? well, as I mentioned, I find it difficult to know when the sheets need changing. I find they work very well for a few weeks and then they gradually seem to wear down and tend to polish more than cut. Having a new surface each time you flatten on waterstones appealed to me.

Plus there was also the cost thing.

And then finally, I guess I just wanted to try something else to see if it was any better.

But the purpose of the thread was mostly to see if others are achieving a better edge than me with a 8k stone. Perhaps there was something I was doing wrong.
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Woodster » 06 Jan 2022, 18:42

Nothing wrong with wanting to try something new, and your reasoning seems valid. It may be the stone you have is not as good as some others out there but without a response from other users of similar stones you’ll never know. Maybe do a Google for reviews? Let us know if you find anything interesting. It probably won’t help me much as I rarely do flat work but it may help others ;)
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

New water stone

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 Jan 2022, 23:00

I’ve got Ice Bear stones, 800 for sharpening and 10000 for polishing and I get my blades (chisel and plane) sharp enough to shave hairs off my arm so it could just be a practice/technique thing mate.
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7567
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: New water stone

Postby Dr.Al » 07 Jan 2022, 08:51

I was avoiding commenting just because it's a sharpening thread and we all know what happens with those!
However I've also got the 8000 ice bear stone and I get a mirror finish that shaves hairs easily too, so it does sound like there's something wrong with technique or perhaps you've got a duff stone.

Just reading another note you included: I don't bother soaking the 8000 stone - I just spray with water and that seems to work fine. From what I've read, the coarser stones need soaking but once you get to the fine ones the water doesn't penetrate very far so soaking is pointless (I might be wrong about that, but it certainly seems to work for me). I now use a 300ish/1000ish diamond stone for "roughing" and the 8000 water stone for finishing (note for the moderators that I'm not commenting on how this compares to other approaches :eusa-dance: :D ). I switched from the coarser waterstones to save the hassle of soaking.
My projects website: https://www.cgtk.co.uk
User avatar
Dr.Al
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: 31 Dec 2020, 10:11
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire
Name: Al

Re: New water stone

Postby Andy Kev. » 07 Jan 2022, 11:32

I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.
Andy Kev.
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 581
Joined: 04 Jan 2021, 20:42
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Lurker » 07 Jan 2022, 11:51

:eusa-naughty: :eusa-naughty:
Lurker
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2447
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:15
Location: Loughborough
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby TomTrees » 07 Jan 2022, 11:52

I've also found this cloudy appearance with the one Japanese waterstone I have (a king 4000g)
but have noticed a most hair popping edge which I have only achieved by stropping before.
Does seem rougher than a real worn in Dia sharp 4000 hone I use.

Hard to describe the difference, as honed on the diamond will shave also, maybe better, but I haven't got that down if it does, and can strop if I want that edge.
https://youtu.be/Jix5SDsfS5I?t=31

Never used a nagura, could it be that this is grading the stone to a courser state?
Does folk grade their naguras?

Although even then, I'd imagine that that edge being courser would still be very effective regarding shaving a bit of hair.
User avatar
TomTrees
New Shoots
 
Posts: 156
Joined: 19 Aug 2014, 23:51
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Woodster » 07 Jan 2022, 12:27

Andy Kev. wrote:I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.


That sounds good. Do you have a link to the DMT you use please?
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 07 Jan 2022, 12:31

It's combination stone, 1200 and 8000 which is why I was soaking it instead of just spraying it.

https://www.worldofsurvival.com/sharpen ... gura-id179

I'm not really sure what I could be doing wrong then? :?

I'll try to take some pictures.
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Alf » 07 Jan 2022, 12:39

Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.
User avatar
Alf
Sapling
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 26 Apr 2021, 19:19
Location: Cornwall, UK
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 07 Jan 2022, 12:46

Alf wrote:Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.


I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Andy Kev. » 07 Jan 2022, 13:17

Woodster wrote:
Andy Kev. wrote:I know you've asked for advice on water stones, so this might seem a bit off topic as, having used water stones, I switched to a double sided DMT diamond stone (fine and super fine) and it does just as good a job as the water stones did. It does however, have certain advantages. The main one is that it can never get out of true and need flattening as a water stone does and secondly, because I use it with lapping fluid, no water gets near blades.

My water stones did a fine job but I was happy to give them to a friend who was just starting up. The bottom line IMO is that the double sided diamond stone is a simpler way of getting the same high grade results.


That sounds good. Do you have a link to the DMT you use please?



Here you go:

https://www.dictum.com/en/dmt-eah/dmt-d ... ine-706294

What's really good about it is that it is long and also the fact that the magnetic holder holds it really firmly.
Andy Kev.
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 581
Joined: 04 Jan 2021, 20:42
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2022, 14:14

Not all stones are equal in my experience. I have collected Japanese kitchen knives in the past, single and double bevel, learnt sharpening in Japan. As well as natural stones I've used various combination stones, as well as King, Shapton glass, and Naniwa over the past 20 years. They all behave differently and I find that combination stones are often not that good in terms of composition consistency. I gave mine away.

Many stones are not meant to be soaked. Especially in fine grits this can lead to surface cracking. My primary stones that I use today are Naniwa plus a strop. I have 400, 1000, 2000, 5000, 7000, 8000 white, 12000 blue and 15000 black. From around 1000 to 8000 is a big jump and hard work.

For kitchen work I can get a knife plenty sharp enough to fine slice a tomato with it just resting on the board using two stones and the strop, and for touch ups the stone I use almost daily is the 2000. The very fine stuff is to get mirror polishing and you don't need them.

In the workshop I use decent quality diamond plates. Easy to wash and no faffing around. I will grind on the linisher if necessary. I don't really let edges get blunt, as that just makes work restoring them.

Most of the time when people get bad results on a water stone, it is because they have the angle wrong (usually cutting behind the edge) or are rocking the blade in the back and forth motion. Pay attention to this and pretty much any abrasive works fine.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Alf » 07 Jan 2022, 15:02

Ayreon wrote:
Alf wrote:Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.


I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.

So you're trying to achieve a level of "sharp" and the woodworking is incidental? Ah, not my forte, but you'll probably enjoy the late Brent Beach's work.
User avatar
Alf
Sapling
 
Posts: 385
Joined: 26 Apr 2021, 19:19
Location: Cornwall, UK
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 07 Jan 2022, 15:34

Alf wrote:
Ayreon wrote:
Alf wrote:Aside from the joy of bald patches on your arms, wouldn't a more pertinent test be to see how your edge cuts wood? i.e. Is it good enough to do the job? In which case, why worry further? All is happiness and you may safely move onto the tree torture which is, iirc, the fun bit.


I was also testing with cutting paper. Which I find a lot easier to gauge than cutting through wood which of course has far more variables.

If there wasn't much of a difference I wouldn't really mind. But it was notably less sharp.

So you're trying to achieve a level of "sharp" and the woodworking is incidental? Ah, not my forte, but you'll probably enjoy the late Brent Beach's work.


Well, I was just comparing how sharp of an edge I was getting with the new stone to what I was getting with the abrasive. i.e can the edge from the new stone still do what I was getting before. Trying to judge that on wood is pretty hard. Where as 'can it cut arm hair' which is a yes or no answer is easier.
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2022, 15:52

The real knife nuts have variations on the paper test too. Hold the paper sheet out with the edge almost horizintal. Shave off a strip of about one mm. If the knife edge will do that easily with almost no resistance then it is sharp.

Life is too short and for woodwork all I do for plane blades, chisels etc is quick touch on the diamond, few strokes on a strop (old belt glued to wood) and crack on with the woodwork.

In Japan I have witnessed planing competitions where they will take a shaving the width of the plane (about 2 inches) off an 8ft length of maple. The shaving has to be one piece and transparent. Being Japan it is all on the pull stroke. That is for the sharpening and planing obsessives. :lol:
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Woodbloke » 07 Jan 2022, 16:49

AJB Temple wrote:
Life is too short and for woodwork all I do for plane blades, chisels etc is quick touch on the diamond, few strokes on a strop (old belt glued to wood) and crack on with the woodwork.


Yep, totally agree and that in essence is all you really, actually need to do. I use the 3M films but it's essentially the same process; if the blade catches on my thumb nail (as opposed to skidding along it) after the strop, it's good enough for woodmangling and that's what's important - Rob
I no longer work for Axminster Tools & Machinery.
User avatar
Woodbloke
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5866
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 10:06
Location: Salisbury, UK
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby Ayreon » 07 Jan 2022, 18:09

I'd agree with chisels. As long as I can slice the end grain, I'm happy. As then I can clean up parts of my joinery with little pressure and mostly without the need for a mallet. I prefer doing it without a mallet as it gives me more control.

But when it comes to planes I'm really looking to get the sharpest edge I can. Not only to get a good finish, but to reduce the chances of tear out, which can really ruin a piece. And I feel that if it can't cut paper effortlessly, it's not sharpen enough. I don't need to take to the wood to find that out.
User avatar
Ayreon
Seedling
 
Posts: 28
Joined: 02 Jan 2022, 12:38
Name:

Re: New water stone

Postby AJB Temple » 07 Jan 2022, 19:41

If you want ultra sharp on a robust blade, you will need to start looking at the different steels available. Spendy. Law of diminishing returns applies. Good luck.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Next

Return to Hand Toolery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests