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Woke terminology hits woodwork

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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2022, 08:52

Yep agreed. Sadly once a word becomes associated with a negative slur it’s very difficult to the. Use that word in its original derivation and that is a shame.

I remember when I first started work in the early 90’s, it was as a lab technician for Valspar, matching colours for drinks can designs. Two very different parts to the business, the lab and office which were quite ‘professional’, then the shop floor where the pigments were bulk mixed to our recipes.

There were a few old timers on the shop floor and a couple in particular who regularly used the word spade to refer to black people, and most definitely in a less than favourable way.

They are the only instances I can give of personal experience though and that was nearly 30 years ago. Perhaps that lady was jaded from back then, and while I agree it’s not in common use now, scars can run deep…
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Lons » 24 Jun 2022, 09:26

It's a fact that language has and will continue to evolve and certainly many words and phrases I regularly hear from younger generations make me cringe sometimes, there are also huge differences depending on the region in which you live, the word spade used as an insult was never common as far as I know in the North East but a friend from Birmingham used it quite often, around here the G word was very regularly heard however.

The constant exposure to coarse language especially on TV and in films (they are NOT bl;**dy movies :cry: ) has a lot to answer for in normalising words I taught my kids not to use.

I'm all in favour of banning language when genuinely used in an offensive manner in the context or race or disability but as in many things there is a balance which often gets tipped too far the other way. and what happened to Adrian is ridiculous and alarming, had it happened to me I would on principle be pursuing a complaint up to director level as that female has an issue and until it's resolved she shouldn't be allowed to interact with buyers in a DIY store, I'd be suggesting some relevant training is in order.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 24 Jun 2022, 09:42

I just added a longish reply to Mark's longish contribution and it vanished into thin air. Is there something we need to know?
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 24 Jun 2022, 10:09

There was no sense in me pursuing a complaint. I found it mildly amusing at the time that they sold spades but objected to the word spade. The young lady in question is absolutely entitled to her personal reaction to any word and had she calmly explained that she had a bad experience of its usage and so reacted badly to it I would have understood. She was actually offensively accusatory to me but that's OK.

I was brought up in a farm environment, but my father was an engineer and my brother became one too, working in factory environments in the Midlands. This was a full racial mix of Pakistani, Indian, and to a lesser extent people with darker skins plus indigenous caucasians. All kind of words that are not acceptable in polite society today were in common usage for all skin colours, including white. For example, I wonder how many of you know what a "freck" is? I suspect it had purely local usage. What we would describe today as racist language was fully normalised, sometimes as a slur but I think mostly not. I think it quite likely, though have no direct experience now, that such terminology is still in use in factory environments in Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Coventry in some places.

I wonder how many of us here watch Love Island. I find it quite interesting how young people, not especially highly educated by and large, adopt words and phrases. For example, most of them like punctuate their sentences with like. When they agree with something (like), or wish to add emphasis, they say one hundred percent. It is used 2 or 3 times in many conversations aired. They use the word "muggy" quite a lot to mean disrespected because you signalled you fancy me but actually you don't. You can actually see word usage change in front of your eyes. There is no point deploring it - all language evolves.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Lurker » 24 Jun 2022, 10:19

Shock horror!!
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Woodbloke » 24 Jun 2022, 10:22

AJB Temple wrote: I find it quite interesting how young people, not especially highly educated by and large, adopt words and phrases. For example, most of them like punctuate their sentences with like.

No.1 son has been reasonably educated (Bishops Wordsworth Grammar {behind the cathedral in town}) and Edinburgh Uni but even he, as a callow yoof, peppered every sentence with the detestable 'like'. Now that he's moved on an up, the City takes a dim view of such vernacular usage...init :D - Rob
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Lons » 24 Jun 2022, 10:29

AJB Temple wrote: The young lady in question is absolutely entitled to her personal reaction to any word and had she calmly explained that she had a bad experience of its usage and so reacted badly to it I would have understood. She was actually offensively accusatory to me but that's OK.


You're a lot more tolerant than me, I don't believe I'm racist and if someone offensively accused me of making a racist comment when I hadn't I would not only be shocked but somewhat irritated.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 24 Jun 2022, 10:34

AJB Temple wrote:She was actually offensively accusatory to me but that's OK.



Adrian,

I understand what you mean by that as I sometimes react similarly to things when I think, "Fair enough, say what you want. I don't particularly care."

However, I submit that what she said was not OK in a number of ways.

a. Firstly she was ignorant of the meaning of the term. Not her fault but rather an indication of poor education, which is just depressing.

b. She was rude, which is unacceptable but perhaps particularly unacceptable in a shop assistant who is expected to deal with the public.

I could be very unkind and say in summary that she went off a half cock because she's dead thick, which might have a degree of truth in it but it is also fairly rude.

The point is that casual rudeness is IMO not acceptable because it represents a coarsening of society and we all become the worse off for that. Additionally, if politeness is the starting point, escalation is less likely. If rudeness is the starting point, we end up being much closer to escalating to something unpleasant. I think that your tolerance or easy-goingness while understandable was perhaps not the best tack. I think I'd have tried to explain it to her and if she accepted the truth, then fair enough. If she persisted, I'd have got the manager with a view to her getting a telling off.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Richard » 24 Jun 2022, 10:50

TrimTheKing wrote:The word was not “mysteriously edited”, there is a profanifilter (swear word list) built in and that word is, and has been since the forum’s inception (and I know this because it’s I who built it).

I’m not going to get into an argument about the use of that word, but my sentiments are above in my reply to Andy Kev.

I'm also not interested in a discussion or argument about the word. If it's deemed unacceptable here I accept that and apologise for any offence I may have inadvertently caused.

I have in the past, of course, come up against forum filters for such banned words. Normally they are easily spotted because filtering or asterisking shows up at the preview stage or when the message is posted, at which point it's almost always possible to go back and edit to use an acceptable alternative or to disguise the offending word.

I just found it curious that the word had seemingly been edited overnight, and I noticed the edit some eight or ten hours after posting; I'd done my usual typing, previewing and posting routine as described above and didn't see warning flags. On revisiting the thread maybe a couple of hours later to read new comments the word, I'm 99% sure, remained in unedited or unredacted form. This morning, when I read Andy Kev's new comment I became aware that editing had happened.

The lack of red flags at the posting stage, as far as I was aware, and then the delayed edit was the only reason I said "mysteriously edited". In truth, if I'd noticed warnings about potential unacceptable word use I would probably have abandoned posting altogether because my intention was only to add what I thought was a somewhat interesting aside to the original direction of the thread. So, apologies again if I caused offence. Maybe I should go back to primarily lurking and saying little or nothing. Slainte.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Tiresias » 24 Jun 2022, 11:02

AJB Temple wrote:Today I needed a 22mm bit to fit a pair of recessed magnets. Could not find one so as I was out anyway I popped into one of the DIY sheds. Couldn't find what I was looking for so went to customer services and was served by a female. I said I want a 22mm spade bit please and can't find any single spade bits or even sets, am I looking in the wrong place?

This caused major furore with me being accused of using inappropriate and racist language. Apparently, in the sheds now, a spade bit is a flat point bit. I showed the manager who was called, and was about 11, the wikipedia and screwfix and bosch web links will all said spade bit. I asked if they sold spades for gardening and was told that was different, but they were unable to explain why. Spaten in German.

Anyway, they didn't have one. Screwfix did.


I wonder what would have happened if you asked her for a no. 8 screw?

Actually woodworking (and most manual activities that have been around for some time) are a fecund hunting ground for double (and for that matter single) entendres. I remember a shop assistant collapsing into giggles when my partner asked for rooting powder.

If my fallible memory serves me rightly Dashiel Hammet had a character called Sam Spade in the Maltese Falcon. I believe it was also a film production of some repute. Don’t seem to remember that having been edited. Although it’s probably only a matter of time before someone takes offence. Or offense.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Woodbloke » 24 Jun 2022, 11:51

Tiresias wrote:I wonder what would have happened if you asked her for a no. 8 screw?



Just to go off tack for a moment, when I was a Plessey apprentice working at Addlestone nr. Weybridge, there happened to be a diminutive, though very attractive young lady on site who's nickname was '12BA'

I'll leave you chaps to work it out :lol: :lol: - Rob
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 24 Jun 2022, 12:24

A builder friend told me years ago that he gone to a merchant's and been told to go into the yard and ask for "Thrush". he asked why the chap was so called - did he sing? He was told no, it was because he was an irritating c***.

A rather naive receptionist where I worked was persuaded to make an announcement over the intercom - "Has anyone seen Mike Hunt?"
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 24 Jun 2022, 12:45

The C word has been in recorded use since the 14th Century and probably unrecorded use for much longer. It's primary meaning doesn't appear to have changed much in several hundred years and remains in common use, although I was surprised when a very well spoken female business partner described he (soon to be ex) husband, in casual conversation as we were walking in the City, as a C. It made me laugh as she was right.

In general I think we could do with being more tolerant of language usage - each to their own preference.

A year or two ago I used to be primary admin for a motorcycle forum. It was relatively civilised (and the forum was not public) but we had one member who was a very keen lay preacher who always wore a big cross (whether visible or not.....). He could take offence on behalf of himself and others, very easily and then would direct his wrath at me. It was quite amusing as we had a number of people in the club who chose to believe in one or other of a range of gods, and a number who considered faith in an unproven concept to be ridiculous. The debate was of course pointless as no one ever changes their mind once an opinion or behaviour is entrenched.

The youth always reject the phraseology of the previous generation. So 'cool' was popularised by the 60's generation and is now a term that marks people down as aged. Sick, however, now means good. Sweet has nothing to do with sugar but signifies approval. And so it goes on forever....
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2022, 12:47

Can i suggest that this sort of humour does not go any further. Some jokes are fine for the pub but would not get repeated in front of my children. I would like to think that we can generate an environment when children of all ages are welcome.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2022, 12:54

Andy Kev. wrote:I just added a longish reply to Mark's longish contribution and it vanished into thin air. Is there something we need to know?


Sometimes it happens unfortunately. The forum software is old and occasionally some people (never happened to me personally) see posts they've written disappear when they press send. It's good practice to highlight and save all your test before hitting send just in case it happens.

I know the forum software is crap and am trying to carve out time in my life to migrate us onto a new platform, but as with all things it's not a small undertaking and fitting it in around life is proving challenging. I'm doing my best to give it some focus now though.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 24 Jun 2022, 12:58

Mark - that is interesting. It has happened to me many times. This may be coincidence, but I suspect it happens when someone else posts slightly ahead of mine - as if their post blocks another submission briefly. The successful post screen does not always come up but sometimes this is not noticed as after pressing send we tend to move on to something else.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2022, 13:07

Richard wrote:I'm also not interested in a discussion or argument about the word. If it's deemed unacceptable here I accept that and apologise for any offence I may have inadvertently caused.

I have in the past, of course, come up against forum filters for such banned words. Normally they are easily spotted because filtering or asterisking shows up at the preview stage or when the message is posted, at which point it's almost always possible to go back and edit to use an acceptable alternative or to disguise the offending word.

I just found it curious that the word had seemingly been edited overnight, and I noticed the edit some eight or ten hours after posting; I'd done my usual typing, previewing and posting routine as described above and didn't see warning flags. On revisiting the thread maybe a couple of hours later to read new comments the word, I'm 99% sure, remained in unedited or unredacted form. This morning, when I read Andy Kev's new comment I became aware that editing had happened.

The lack of red flags at the posting stage, as far as I was aware, and then the delayed edit was the only reason I said "mysteriously edited". In truth, if I'd noticed warnings about potential unacceptable word use I would probably have abandoned posting altogether because my intention was only to add what I thought was a somewhat interesting aside to the original direction of the thread. So, apologies again if I caused offence. Maybe I should go back to primarily lurking and saying little or nothing. Slainte.


No need for you to back away from commenting mate, no offence intended on my part, I was hung over this morning when I replied so probably a bit more pointed than I would have been had a written it now! :eusa-doh: Apologies.

In all honesty I don't know why that happened to you as I've only ever seen the replacement '*' appear instantly, so not sure what happened there, I just wanted to assure you that it wasn't done by stealth by any of the Mod's.

Obviously all words can be used in a context that is acceptable, but unfortunately software doesn't allow for context and it has to be a black and white allow/block on certain words that could be used to insult or be derogatory.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2022, 13:09

AJB Temple wrote:Mark - that is interesting. It has happened to me many times. This may be coincidence, but I suspect it happens when someone else posts slightly ahead of mine - as if their post blocks another submission briefly. The successful post screen does not always come up but sometimes this is not noticed as after pressing send we tend to move on to something else.


Yeah not sure tbh. I've lost one before but it was down to me being too quick fingered. If someone posts while you're composing then when you click send that post will appear above yours, but often you have to scroll up to see it then click send again to post yours. Maybe that's what's happened to you, you haven't seen it and clicked onwards thus losing yours...?
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby MattS » 24 Jun 2022, 13:44

I don't think your first response was too harsh Mark. Most words yes, can be used in a context that is acceptable. When it comes to the path this discussion took I can't see any context where a bunch of middle aged men should use that word.

I really dislike the term woke, it is often used in a context which is negative. Much like snowflake but for some reason I dislike it more. Since when did being aware and considerate of other people become a bad thing???
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby TrimTheKing » 24 Jun 2022, 14:13

Totally agree on the use of woke, it's a terrible term and the assumption that being aware of what's happening around you and sympathetic/empathetic towards it is bad thing is just horrible.

It's another word that started as a positive (if you Google the meaning and origins of the word) but has been stolen and the meaning bastardised by those who favour freedom of speech but don't like repercussions of that freedom (and I'm not referring to anyone here with that, I'm talking about the wider world in general, Trump being one of them).

I also dislike the new connotations to snowflake for the same reasons. Apparently being sympathetic to a cause that others aren't somehow makes you a bleeding heart liberal (and what's wrong with that!).

The world is going to hell in a handcart I fear, people care less for each other than I've ever known and as much as I love technology and social media, SM is undoubtedly giving a platform to people to spout nonsense and bile that they didn't have before because they'd have had to shout in public and would have had their @rses handed to them if they said the wrong thing...
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby MattS » 24 Jun 2022, 14:19

Yes, it's not a new word but has been stolen. I wasn't directing my comments towards Adrian using it in this thread - it's when it's used to describe a person it winds me up :lol:
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 24 Jun 2022, 14:53

Feel free to criticise my use of woke. :lol:

It is actually a good example of how usage can be changed very rapidly and this has happened within the past three years. Hence the origin of a word actually matters less than typical current usage. If most people regard woke as being a negative expression (which is probably the case) then it is indeed a negative expression by common usage. It's descriptive shorthand and people understand it.

It was in fact the wrong choice of word for the title here. The young woman was offended because of ignorance and she opened her mouth long before engaging her brain. Her lack of eduction and that of the young manager is not their fault (probably). The really annoying thing about it all was that fitting the ultra strong magnets to the door has not solved the problem at all. You can't prise the darned things apart when then are mated, but the door has an arc (it's hinged) and that necessitates a slight gap which the draught easily overcomes. Oh well, back to the blackboard.

Snowflake is quite similar in a way and it has caught on to be used about people who are easily upset by things that do not upset or amuse the majority. The easily melted aspect does seem apt to me at times.

Triggered is another word that has very recently entered into a similar arena, where people say they are "triggered" by certain things. This is very interesting as they can apply it to absolutely anything and if the media is to be believed :shock: then it is influencing teaching a good deal at the moment especially in fields of literature, drama and history.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 24 Jun 2022, 16:04

AJB Temple wrote:The debate was of course pointless as no one ever changes their mind once an opinion or behaviour is entrenched.


Jonathan Swift — 'Reasoning will never make a man correct an ill opinion, which by reasoning he never acquired'
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 24 Jun 2022, 16:07

AJB Temple wrote:Triggered is another word that has very recently entered into a similar arena, where people say they are "triggered" by certain things.



I did read that a Cambridge college doesn't use the word any more because it is associated with guns. :lol:
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 16:19

Richard wrote:.....I guess they thought looking up the word in a decent dictionary wasn't necessary. Slainte.


Since when was 'logic' and 'bigotry' in the same sentence (before this one!). I loathe 'woke' as it denigrates what the actual core issue is.
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