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Woke terminology hits woodwork

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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Argus » 24 Jun 2022, 16:22

There have always been versions of so-called Snowflakes. The perception of an offense is an odd thing..............................

I read somewhere this week about a comedian - Joe Lycett - having to explain to the' POLICE', no less, how a joke in one of his performances was not actually deliberately offensive to the irate person who took offense and reported it to the police.
Apparently the punch line involved finding humour in the concept of a Donkey's Dangler.

The ultimate irony involved the comedian, apparently writing a serious scripted analysis of his own joke, to convince the constabulary that a Donkey's Doo-Dah really is a laughing matter.

There was a brief mention of Swift a little earlier, and many years ago, (almost 300, actually), Jonathan Swift wrote a serious, very straight-faced send-up, a classical satire, criticising through ridicule the morals and attitudes in Irish Georgian society as it was then, called 'A Modest Proposal'.
In brief, it examined the culinary concept of developing the children of the poor for the tables of the rich and involved a detailed examination of the whole plan including the economics and suggested recipes.

To give you a flavour, and a nod to the Great Man, here's a typical passage:

I have already computed the charge of nursing a beggar’s child (in which list I reckon all cottagers, labourers, and four-fifths of the farmers) to be about two shillings per annum, rags included; and I believe no gentleman would repine to give ten shillings for the carcass of a good fat child, which, as I have said, will make four dishes of excellent nutritive meat, when he hath only some particular friend, or his own family to dine with him. Thus the squire will learn to be a good landlord, and grow popular among his tenants, the mother will have eight shillings neat profit, and be fit for work till she produces another child.


It continues in the same vein......
He was vilified for his pains by the 18th Century Snowflakes and by all but the few who could not see through the wind-up.

Would a modern satirist get away with that nowadays?

It could have been an elaborate scheme to get Joe Lycett in all the papers.......but we should be interested to see Joe Lycett's explanation of the rights and wrongs of humour and ponder what Swift would have written in those circumstances..

.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 16:25

Lons wrote:.... around here the G word ....


What? Not 'Guardian' :o
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 16:27

AJB Temple wrote:..... This was a full racial mix of Pakistani, Indian, and to a lesser extent people with darker skins plus indigenous caucasians. .....


Intonation, emphasis and context of a word also have a role to play IMO.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 16:30

Richard wrote:...Maybe I should go back to primarily lurking and saying little or nothing. Slainte.


Oh most definitely don't, please, Richard ! Post away... :D
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 16:39

Talking of 'filters' I've mentioned this before but worth another outing, I think.

We had sent an email to our contact in Sagem France. We'd been having technical difficulties and in all innocence wrote that we thought we could see a chink in the wall. He was hauled over the coals (unfairly since he didn't create the email) for the use of a deemed offensive word.

Naturally we sympathised. Then spent the rest of the day composing emails about the nasty nip in the air, that everything was spick and span etc
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Tiresias » 24 Jun 2022, 16:46

AJB Temple wrote:
Triggered is another word that has very recently entered into a similar arena, where people say they are "triggered" by certain things. This is very interesting as they can apply it to absolutely anything and if the media is to be believed :shock: then it is influencing teaching a good deal at the moment especially in fields of literature, drama and history.


‘Trigger warning’. For some reason that really irritates me. The BBC does it a lot. And I am not BBC bashing, just an example. And it relates to radio only, because I don’t watch the television.
But I really don’t know who needs to be told that Dickens might be less than sympathetic in his portrayals of Jews , or that the works of Evelyn Waugh may contain non-complimentary opinions of some sectors of society.

And when one gets to Ezra Pound or T S Elliot. Just to pick two.

If you are bright enough to understand what you are reading or listening to, then you are bright enough to understand context and non-contemporary mores. For someone else to decide on your behalf is patronising to say the least.

Still, I have never really recovered from an interviewee that asked, in all seriousness, where the facility was for her to have a nap every aftenoon. ‘Essential for her well-being’, apparently. My sotto voce suggestion of the floor the disabled lavvy, just like everyone else that had had a good lunch was not, I’m afraid, in line with the partnership’s HR policies.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Richard » 24 Jun 2022, 17:21

TrimTheKing wrote: ... no offence intended on my part, I was hung over this morning when I replied so probably a bit more pointed than I would have been had a written it now! Apologies.

No apologies needed to me. When I read your message I was mostly concerned that I'd used a word that had been interpreted as the n word, which is not the interpretation I associate with it; in my mind it means stingy, mean, tight fisted, etc. But I can also see, I suppose, that its similar sound to the n word may cause offence. Anyway, hungover or not, I don't think your response was anything other than reasoned, and not pointed.

Now, moving on, a word that annoys me simply because it's frequently used in the wrong context is refute. The well known figure caught in some unsavoury act will sometimes say, "I refute that." That's usually the end of it, but what I'm waiting for when I hear that is the evidence to refute the accusation or charge, and it is seldom provided. So the accused doesn't refute anything, they're really just denying. Slainte.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 24 Jun 2022, 18:11

All of these words have been carefully 'curated'. ;)
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 24 Jun 2022, 19:21

:eusa-doh: :lol:
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 24 Jun 2022, 19:22

I worked with a chap who had several sustificates in pacific subjects.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 25 Jun 2022, 08:06

MattS wrote:I don't think your first response was too harsh Mark. Most words yes, can be used in a context that is acceptable. When it comes to the path this discussion took I can't see any context where a bunch of middle aged men should use that word.

I really dislike the term woke, it is often used in a context which is negative. Much like snowflake but for some reason I dislike it more. Since when did being aware and considerate of other people become a bad thing???


Some people have larger vocabularies than others. That is probably a function of education and how well read one is. Are you seriously suggesting that an educated Englishman should abandon a word from his vocabulary because someone less educated might misinterpret it? Go down that road and we'll all end up as articulate as the likes of David Beckham and that is a road I will not travel.

The word "woke" in its modish usage was coined by the very people against whom it is now used pejoratively. They have no-one to blame for this but themselves. "Wokeness" is presented as being considerate of the feelings of others and I'm prepared to believe that some genuinely believe that is what it is about. However, the fanatics who push it routinely try to silence those who question them or with whom they disagree. This is known as "cancel culture" and theat term again is their own.

Compare and contrast the readiness to cancel with the noblest principle of democracy: "I might not agree with what you say but I am prepared to fight to the death to defend your right to say it".

Now contrast that with your view of the word in question (I can't be bothered to type it out again due to the need for spacing).

Now this is going to sail close to politics, so I will be careful: is there a moral distinction to be made between woke students preventing someone from speaking at their university aka cancelling them and the brownshirts burning books in the 30s? I suggest there isn't: both have the wish to deny their opponents the right to a voice.

Adrian's shop assistant is not in the same league. She was obviously so poorly educated that she literally did not understand what he was talking about. We should not dumb down our language for people like that, nor should we censor ourselves for fear of those who would deprive us of free speech.
Last edited by Andy Kev. on 25 Jun 2022, 09:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 25 Jun 2022, 08:08

Phil Pascoe wrote:I worked with a chap who had several sustificates in pacific subjects.

Ahhhh ... sustificates! I haven't heard of them for years. I just assumed they had been phased out before I got to school. :D
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 25 Jun 2022, 08:29

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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 25 Jun 2022, 08:42

Thanks for the tip. Titiana McGrath has a column in a magazine called The Critic which I read regularly. The first time I read the column, I was nearly taken in. "She" is very, very good.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 25 Jun 2022, 08:54

Is this the Dr Andrew Doyle work? I've heard of him but not come across his satirical writings for some reason.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 25 Jun 2022, 09:16

I didn’t know he was a doc but yes, he’s the author.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Phil Pascoe » 25 Jun 2022, 09:49

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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Lons » 25 Jun 2022, 09:57

Andy Kev. wrote:
MattS wrote:Some people have larger vocabularies than others. That is probably a function of education and how well read one is. Are you seriously suggesting that an educated Englishman should abandon a word from his vocabulary because someone less educated might misinterpret it? Go down that road and we'll all end up as articulate as the likes of David Beckham and that is a road I will not travel.

Adrian's shop assistant is not in the same league. She was obviously so poorly educated that she literally did not understand what he was talking about. We should not dumb down our language for people like that, nor should we censor ourselves for fear of those who would deprive us of free speech.


:eusa-clap: :eusa-clap: Well said and in the case of the shop assistant it probably isn't her fault however it is the responsibility of senior management to ensure that their employees are adequately trained to react to customer enquiries in the correct manner even if just for the valid reason of good customer relations and service, it is also their responsibility to place an employee in a more suitable role if that person is not prepared or able to learn from her mistake, hopefully she did but possibly not which is why had it been me who was accused I would have followed it through, without that action she may well insult another less tolerant customer.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby AJB Temple » 25 Jun 2022, 11:39

Everyone is very tolerant in Tunbridge Wells. Some may be disgusted, but they are still tolerant. ;)
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Lons » 25 Jun 2022, 11:47

AJB Temple wrote:Everyone is very tolerant in Tunbridge Wells. Some may be disgusted, but they are still tolerant. ;)

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Vann » 25 Jun 2022, 17:41

A co-worker accused me of being "woke". I had to look it up to find out what it meant. I didn't feel particularly insulted (although I'm sure it was intended that way). My accuser is a Trump supporter and anti-vaxer.

But back to appropriate/inappropriate words (lets see what the forum filter makes of this) is the term I was taught for a mechanical device to govern the flow of air down a pipe. We were taught it was a "cock". No doubt we apprentices had a chuckle at first but it soon became normal usage as it was the correct term at our establishment (railway workshops).

But one that still causes me some hesitation in mixed company is the use of "male" or "female" to describe pipe fittings. Maybe I'm a snowflake (having just found out what that term refers to while reading this thread) ;)

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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby RogerS » 25 Jun 2022, 17:54

Vann wrote:.....
But one that still causes me some hesitation in mixed company is the use of "male" or "female" to describe pipe fittings. ....


Anyone that takes umbrage at the use of two words that have been used in, say, an engineering context for hundred's of years needs to STFU (engineer speak for 'Don't be a tw*t).
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andyp » 25 Jun 2022, 17:57

Vann wrote:A co-worker accused me of being "woke". I had to look it up to find out what it meant. I didn't feel particularly insulted (although I'm sure it was intended that way). My accuser is a Trump supporter and anti-vaxer.

But back to appropriate/inappropriate words (lets see what the forum filter makes of this) is the term I was taught for a mechanical device to govern the flow of air down a pipe. We were taught it was a "cock". No doubt we apprentices had a chuckle at first but it soon became normal usage as it was the correct term at our establishment (railway workshops).

But one that still causes me some hesitation in mixed company is the use of "male" or "female" to describe pipe fittings. Maybe I'm a snowflake (having just found out what that term refers to while reading this thread) ;)

Cheers, Vann.


Vann you are right. I’ve always referred to the the “taps” that cut off the water supply to the house as Stop Cocks.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby MattS » 25 Jun 2022, 20:00

Andy Kev. wrote:Some people have larger vocabularies than others. That is probably a function of education and how well read one is. Are you seriously suggesting that an educated Englishman should abandon a word from his vocabulary because someone less educated might misinterpret it? Go down that road and we'll all end up as articulate as the likes of David Beckham and that is a road I will not travel.


I really can’t believe you’ve written that, the word in question really does not show a large vocabulary. There’s lots more is like to say that the mods rightly wouldn’t be happy with.
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Re: Woke terminology hits woodwork

Postby Andy Kev. » 25 Jun 2022, 20:40

And I'm afraid that I find it hard to believe that you think that counts as some kind of rational argument.

It is glaringly obvious that no single word could possibly be indicative of a large or indeed a small vocabulary. The point about an individual's vocabulary is that is has to be taken as a whole. However, it is logical to suppose that the larger a vocabulary is, the greater the chances of relatively rare words being part of it.

I'm afraid that I don't understand the first half of your second sentence. However, to state that the mods would be "rightly" or even "wrongly" happy about any particular word is a purely subjective view and secondly, not the mods on here nor the keepers of some sacred puritanical flame at e.g. the BBC are in a position to point out whether or not we should be happy with a word. Perhaps we should let the likes of the OED be the arbiter of this, eh? It does have the virtue of being objective, informed, informative and authoritative.

The fact is that the displeasure at the word in question is either born of ignorance of its meaning or of the fact that the noun version sounds like a word which is reasonably regarded by many, particularly in the USA, as unacceptable. To render another word out of court simply because it "sounds like" is absurd. Context here is everything as it is the context which clarifies what is being meant.

Remember the Vietnamese girl who got the skin burned off her back by a napalm strike? One of her names was Phuc. Rather prudishly broadcasters avoided naming her for years for the reason of how the word is pronounced. This does not indicate adult thinking. We can excuse this sort of nonsense amongst silly undergraduates but not in the adult world.
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