It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 11:55

Plough plane blade compatibility

The place to talk about tools 'without tails', so come here with all your plane and chisel, burnisher and bradawl chatter.

Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Windows » 10 Aug 2022, 06:04

Apologies. I know I’ve seen this info online, but I’m failing to find it again. Does anyone have a summary of the various blade compatibility options between different plough/multi plane makes and models? My immediate need is a 3mm or 1/8” blade for a Record 405, but if I know that 44 blades do or don’t work or Stanley’s work, but can’t be depth adjusted, or whatever the deal is, I’ll be able to weigh up all the eBay and replacement blade options. Thanks!
Windows
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 619
Joined: 25 Jan 2022, 06:30
Location: Cumbria & Kent
Name:

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby AndyT » 10 Aug 2022, 08:33

Quick answer - pretty much anything will work in your 405. Its clamp will take cutters over 1/8" thick or under 3mm thick but still tighten up properly.

The compatibility problems are mainly to do with the different notches for depth adjustment (which you won't have on a narrow 1/8" cutter) or trying to put a long cutter into a small bodied plane.

If all else fails, Paul Sellers' last blog post was about how easy it is to make your own.
--------------
Andy
User avatar
AndyT
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 23 Nov 2020, 19:45
Location: Bristol
Name: Andy

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Windows » 10 Aug 2022, 09:27

Great! Thanks Andy.
Windows
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 619
Joined: 25 Jan 2022, 06:30
Location: Cumbria & Kent
Name:

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Dr.Al » 10 Aug 2022, 09:41

Andy's covered it pretty well, but for what it's worth, the 405 (which I think is the same as the #45 and the #55) is very easy to make cutters for with full adjustment (much easier than making them for the #50). I used some 3 mm gauge plate (which is inexpensive and readily available either square for 3 mm cutters or flat for more flexibility) to make a whole set of metric cutters for my #45. The adjustment thing just requires a notch near the top, which I made with a 3 mm end mill in my milling machine, but it would be easy to make with a needle file as the dimensions and location aren't critical.

When I made the the 3 mm cutter, I made it as a 4 mm one and reduced the width just at the tip. The tip is the only thing that needs to be an accurate size and making it a bit wider further up meant that there was a reasonably amount of material left after cutting the notch.

If you want a quick and minimum tooling way to make a fully-adjustable cutter:

  1. Buy some 3 mm gauge plate in whatever size you want (either 3 mm square if you only want to do a 3 mm one or 3 mm by some width or other if you want the option to make others)
  2. Cut it to length and to slightly over width with a hacksaw
  3. File the cut edge down to width: you only need to do this near the cutting end
  4. Use a needle file to file a notch in the "factory edge" at the end furthest from the cutting end
  5. File / grind / angle-grind the bevel very roughly (it doesn't matter how hot it gets in this step as it hasn't been heat-treated yet)
  6. Heat with a blow-torch until it's glowing red and/or doesn't stick to a magnet
  7. Dunk in some vegetable oil or DOT4 or something like that

Then either:

  1. Rub with wet-and-dry until the black scale has gone and you can see the steel colour
  2. Heat gently away from the cutting edge and as soon as the straw-like yellow colour reaches the tip, dunk it again.

Or, just bung it in the kitchen oven at about 230°C for long enough that it's heated through (I use this method when I'm doing several cutters at once).

Finally, sharpen it.
My projects website: https://www.cgtk.co.uk
User avatar
Dr.Al
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: 31 Dec 2020, 10:11
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire
Name: Al

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Dr.Al » 10 Aug 2022, 09:44

Oh, and it's worth checking your plane can clamp 3 mm stock. Both my #45 and my #55 work fine with 3 mm stock, but my boss has a #45 or #405 or something like that and he made some cutters out of 3 mm gauge plate and had to add a thin shim to make it clamp the 3 mm stock.

It surprised me that his would clamp 3.2 mm (1/8") okay but not 3 mm given the way it works, but my boss is seriously talented mechanical engineer & machinist, so I'm sure he knew what he was doing.
Last edited by Dr.Al on 10 Aug 2022, 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
My projects website: https://www.cgtk.co.uk
User avatar
Dr.Al
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: 31 Dec 2020, 10:11
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire
Name: Al

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby AndyT » 10 Aug 2022, 10:05

That's a useful detail from Al. I checked a thinner cutter from a Stanley 50, which was only just over 3mm thick, in my 405 and it clamped just fine.

You could always experiment with measured cardboard, cut up strips of credit card or something and find out how thin you can clamp in your 405.
--------------
Andy
User avatar
AndyT
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 23 Nov 2020, 19:45
Location: Bristol
Name: Andy

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Dr.Al » 10 Aug 2022, 10:12

Yep, and if all else fails, you can always just add a thin shim (e.g. a bit cut out of some plastic packaging or some paper) on top of the cutter when you use it.
My projects website: https://www.cgtk.co.uk
User avatar
Dr.Al
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1964
Joined: 31 Dec 2020, 10:11
Location: Dursley, Gloucestershire
Name: Al

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Lurker » 10 Aug 2022, 10:32

I do pretty much as Al suggests, then the final temper is I bung then in the oven when her majesty is doing a roast and leave them until the oven has cooled down, often the next day.
Thin angle grinder discs are the lazy way to cut the steel to length and also make the notch.
Lurker
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2447
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:15
Location: Loughborough
Name:

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Argus » 10 Aug 2022, 15:37

One thing that the latest Paul Sellers video about plough blades mentions (and something that 'new'-made spare plough blades tend to ignore) is the fact that the blade's cross-section is intentionally very slightly trapezoidal in shape. Just a degree or two will do, sloping from the flat side.

This alleviates the tendency for blades to bind or 'grab' with friction on the sides as it descends into deeper grooves. Its only contact is one with the side-aris.

As a personal preference, I tend to sharpen so that the corners of the bevel are pin-sharp and also continue on the sides to give a very slight hone on the first half-inch or so of the side aris, so that it gives clean scour to the sides.
It does make a noticeable difference to the cutting action if you have many feet of ploughs to cut.
Good advice about making your own, though. If you disable the adjustments, any 1/8th inch thick blade will fit within a wide tolerance.

good luck
Argus
Sapling
 
Posts: 258
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 12:45
Location: Ceredigion Uplands
Name:

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby jimhanna » 10 Aug 2022, 21:25

Below are just some comments re cutter compatibility. Bold I own or have owned in the past, the rest is just a summary of my internet gleanings.

Metal Plough plane cutter adjuster compatibility. For plough cutters only.

Record 043 / Mitor 88 - no adjuster, anything up to ½” size is prob OK

Record 044 Flanged nut underneath the blade engaging in cross slots under the blade

Stanley 50 Two toothed swivel lever engaging in cross slots under the blade.

The Record 044 can use Stanley 50 blades with increased backlash in the adjustment, the 50 cannot use Record 044 blades.

Record 050 Blades need a slot on the LH edge of the cutter looking from the rear.
Unique but a slot could be easily cut

Mitor 95 Flanged nut above the blade engaging in cross slots on top of the blade, unique I think

Lewin Blades need a slot on the RH edge of the cutter looking from the rear. Medium and large cutters are probably compatible with the group below. Smaller Lewin sizes have a wider top, therefore 45/405 etc small cutters won’t work.

Stanley 13-050, Record 044C, 045C and 050C Blades need a slot on the RH edge of the cutter
Stanley 45, Record 405 and Stanley 55 looking from the rear.
(some modern Veritas blades have a similar slot)

"The Veritas Combination Plane is supplied with a 1/4” wide, A2 tool steel grooving blade, and a selection of blade profiles is available separately. It will accept the right-hand (and unhanded) blades available with the Veritas Small Plow Plane, as well as the blades used with the Stanley #45 and most of those used with the Stanley #55."
Above is excerpt from 05P5901-brochure.pdf (veritastools.com)

Stanley 13-050 blades are a bit shorter than the older 405/45/55 blades but there should be enough adjustment capacity to let them work. Certainly the 13-050 can use 405/55 plough cutters and vice versa.

Beads and flutes cutter profiles differ slightly from the 13-050 to the 45/405 because of the difference in bed angle 45 v 50 degrees.

Bed angles

043, Mitor 88, 13-050, 46 all at 45 degrees

405, 55 50 degrees
jimhanna
Seedling
 
Posts: 9
Joined: 21 Feb 2021, 22:36
Location: Co Antrim
Name: Jim Hanna

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby Windows » 11 Aug 2022, 06:53

Thanks everyone. That’s great info. I’d love to have a go at making some cutters, so the detailed steps are v welcome and that compatibility info is also marvellous.
Windows
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 619
Joined: 25 Jan 2022, 06:30
Location: Cumbria & Kent
Name:

Re: Plough plane blade compatibility

Postby AndyT » 11 Aug 2022, 07:06

Jim, that's some impressive level of detail implying an interest in hand tools and possibly a collection of quite a few!
Welcome to the forum - do feel free to tell us a bit more about yourself and what you make or do.
--------------
Andy
User avatar
AndyT
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2364
Joined: 23 Nov 2020, 19:45
Location: Bristol
Name: Andy


Return to Hand Toolery

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 10 guests