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Dead CamVac motor

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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby 9fingers » 14 Aug 2019, 20:29

Rod wrote:Contacted Axminster, repair likely to cost £87.
New ones £106!

Rod


Not surprised really with parts and labour costs.
Possibly little or no warranty on the repaired tool (perhaps the repair itself might have warranty but nothing else)
Brand spanking new warranty with the new tool too.

I have heard of some tools repairers charging a fixed price to investigate and provide a quote for the cost of the actual repair simply because customers being given a repair quote after free investigation opt to buy new.

Bob
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 05 Feb 2021, 22:24

Hello,
I currently have a problem with a single motorized CamVac and searching for some information.
I didn't know this device until now, but I was happy when I received it from a workshop dissolution.
I have read a lot about it on the Internet and also watched some videos. It seems to be a popular device.
Now to my problem.
In my opinion, the device generates too much heat ..., so the engine is getting too hot and there is also something wrong with the suction power.
As I've seen in videos, the device should have significantly more suction power.
I took a closer look at the motor.
With the thought that I might have to replace the motor, I searched for information and prices on the internet.
I have now heard that the CamVac devices apparently have thru flow suction turbines from AMETEK .....
However, I found another turbine in my CamVac (Domel) and it also looks like someone has already worked on it.
So I ask myself whether I still have an original suction turbine in there with the correct suction power.
Can anyone say something about it or do you have pictures of the original engine, maybe with manufacturer information?

And for those who have installed a third party turbine...., does these do the same work with the same suction power and flow as the original motor?
Notice any difference?

Many Thanks
Raphael
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Andyp » 06 Feb 2021, 08:07

Hi Raphael and welcome to the forum.

I have a twin motor Camvac and I don't mind having a look for you. How would I identify which thru flow suction turbines it uses?
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 06 Feb 2021, 12:44

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the "welcome" and for your post.
That would be very nice if you could have a look on your CamVac :)
This type of suction turbine can be recognized by the fact that they do not have a fan above for engine cooling.
The cooling takes place by the flow of the sucked air through the motor.
Another type that is often used is the bi-pass motor.
This has its own fan for cooling at the top of the motor shaft and the air that is sucked in does not flow through the motor and is diverted from the side of the turbine housing.
From the construction of the CamVac, I think that it is right with a thru-flow, but I have doubts about the built-in model (in terms of manufacturer and performance).
It would be interesting to have all the information that could be used to identify the manufacturer of the turbine and possibly the model.
Perhaps from a sticker, or engraved somewhere, or cast in the alu-cast-frame.
Many thanks.
Raphael
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 22 Feb 2021, 22:12

Hi
I wanted to ask whether someone might have in the meantime some information about the installed turbine.
@ Andy, I would be very happy if you might have a look at your CamVac on occasion.
Many Thanks
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Andyp » 23 Feb 2021, 07:29

Raphael, :oops: so sorry. Clean forgot. I am currently away from base (yes that is allowed here). I should be back and able to have a look over the weekend. Apart from taking the top off the Camvac will I need to dismantle anything?
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 27 Feb 2021, 19:27

Hi Andy,
no problem, I'll wait until you find the time to have look.
Probably there may be a few more steps...
If you remove the filter bag, you only see the lower part of the turbine and probably you will not find any information on that part.
If not, you can loosen the screw from the PVC pipe flange mounted on the drum cover and have a look on the back of the motor.
I hope there are some information on the back and the motor has not to be pulled out of the pipe..., to have a look on the side of the motor.
If possible, please take a few pictures from the turbine / motor, also if there are no type label or other id.
Every detail that can be seen on the picture could help.
Many thanks for your efforts!
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Andyp » 28 Feb 2021, 15:54

Hi,
I am going to admit defeat on this one. the twin motors are not visible at all without doing more dismantling than I am willing to do. With the paper and cloth filter removed from the casing there is nothing to be seen. Visible through the air intakes on top are just a few wires and connections.
Have you considered contacting technical support at Record Power, they took over the Camvac range a few years back.
https://www.recordpower.co.uk/support/page/contact

You might have to register to contact them online but that is no big deal.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Loonie » 16 Dec 2021, 18:53

@Raphael have you been able to figure out what motors are used in the current camvac collectors? I was considering building my own dust collector.
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 16 Dec 2021, 20:33

Hi Loonie,
No, unfortunately I wasn't able to find out any information about this CamVac motor.
Seems to be a secret :)

If you should find any informations ..., I am still interested ;)
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Loonie » 17 Dec 2021, 19:36

I looked into a couple of systems and there is the Oneida Cobra https://www.oneida-air.com/contractor-tools/industrial-vacuums/dust-cobra-full-unit-hepa-2-stage-vacuum, what has similar CFM compared to the 2 motor CamVac. I mentioned it in another post already. I think the tapered cyclone is the better solution for dust separation. It also has a self cleaning HEPA filter. BUT, it is also more expensive.

There is also the Oneida Supercell what uses three motors Image
I did some google image search and it looks like a Domel motor to me, like e.g. the Domel 467.3.403-3.
https://www.domel.com/resources/files/pdf/467.3.403-3.pdf

I was thinking of building my own high velocity dust collector. I don't like the the baffle separation of the camvac and both Oneidas are expensive. However I do like the design of the Oneida Cobra (maybe with 2 motors instead of one). It really only requires the right kind of motors, some shop VAC HEPA filters, a cyclone and a drum.
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 19 Dec 2021, 19:45

Hello Loonie,

Thanks for the information and the description of your project.
I had also do some researche on the Internet, as I am now also thinking about building myself a stronger suction unit with a cyclone and a slightly larger collection drum.
At the moment I'm still thinking about a system with 3 turbines.
So a similar project to yours :)

I was looking for reliable and powerful suction turbines and also read a little about the turbine technology.
There are 2 systems for suction turbines, the "suction-air flowing through system" and the "bypass system".
In the first system, the sucked air is passed through the inside of the electric motor for cooling purpose. The bypass system has its own fan for cooling the motor.
The bypass system is designed "encapsulated", it can also be used in a wet vacuum cleaner and is less prone (i.e. if the dust filter fails).
So far I've ended up with a 3-stage suction turbine from AMETEK, this turbine seems to me to be powerful.
With a rough price comparison I have seen that such a bypass turbine from Ametek is about twice as expensive as the Domel turbine that you linked....

Interesting are the data in comparison, between the linked Domel and the Ametek turbine, in terms of air volume, air pressure, air output and efficiency .....
I'm not an expert, but at first glance there are significant differences in the data sheets.
With the same orifice (and I think that for both it should be 50mm or larger), the Ametek turbine has an air flow that is 3.3 times greater than the Domel turbine, but a pressure that is 2.7 times lower.
In this operating condition, the Domel turbine has an efficiency of 12.3% and the Ametek only 2.51% ...

Air volume and air pressure play a big role in workshop extraction. Depending on the application, we need a high negative pressure (suction from small handheld machines, etc.) or a high air volume (suction from large stationary machines such as table saws and planing machines) ...

The question is, for what purpose we need the suction.
Rather for "high vacuum" suction or rather for "high volume" suction.
Both together with only one machine would be ideal, but I'm afraid that this can't really be covered with one device and for this reason I ask myself how to design a system that would best meet my needs.

Datasheet of the Ametek turbine:
https://mistral.mplug.it/index.php?p=Ge ... hod=inline

Would be nice if you continued to describe your project here.
thanks
regards
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Loonie » 28 Dec 2021, 18:43

Hi @KeiKoo,
I read about the flow-through and bypass motors. I don't think it would matter in my case, as the a tapered cyclone would filter all debris and the fine dust would be caught by the HEPA filter.

I agree, in an ideal world each machine would need to have its own dust collector with optimal suction/volume ratio. However, as this is not practical, I looked at the specs of some manufactures:

In terms of suction the Oneida Dust Cobra has 70 WC (245cfm) and the Supercell 98WC (465cfm)
Most Festool vacs have a waterlift of 98 WC and a CFM of around 135.

In conclusion, I would assume that suction around 100 WC is desirable.

According to this website https://blog.aramsco.com/series-vs-parallel-vacuum-configurations
(...)parallel set up allows you to double your air flow, but you don’t get much increase in lift.

So the motor would need to provide the desired suction by default but the cfm can be increased by adding more motors to the configuration.

I'm not sure if it's possible to just compare WC to kPa, but if yes 23mm orifice would be the closest to 1 inch to calculate waterlift/inch. The Domel motor would have 61 WC (15,1KPa) @23mm)and the Ametek motor you linked would have 40 WC (9,9KPa) @23mm).
So it appears that both motors are lacking suction.

The website above also gives some good insight into airwatts. From my understanding you want the highest airwatts with the hose size you are using. Both motors would perform great at 19mm but not good at 50mm. This kind of makes sense as most vacuum hoses are around 19mm. So in conclusion, both motors are not great for a 50mm (or 2inch ) dust collection system.

I will need to do some more research regarding the motors. I believe a standard vacuum motor is not a good choice, as those are optimized for 19mm hose sizes. It would still be great if someone could take a closer look at their CamVac and see what motor is used.
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby KeiKoo » 28 Dec 2021, 22:09

Hi @Loonie,

Thanks for this informations an the linked page.

Yes, the goal of 100"WC wouldn't be bad :), but this value alone doesn't really say much...
Additionaly, the desired target values ​​for CFM and, above all, the orifice diameter (suction opening = hose diameter) should be indicated...
Only with all these values ​​the real suction power can be estimated ;)

I would be more than happy with 100"WC, 500 CFM for a suction opening of 50mm.

When I read the descriptions for the COBRA and SUPERCELL, I notice a few things:

1) For the COBRA you wrote: 70"WC (245cfm) and for the SUPERCELL 98"WC (465cfm).
-> For the COBRA, the indicated 70"WC corresponds to the maximum suction power and not to the real suction power at 245 CFM. At 245 CFM the suction power is only 23"WC !
And for the SUPERCELL, the indicated 98"WC is also the maximum value and does not correspond to the real value at 465 CFM .... The real suction power (WC) at 465 CFM is unfortunately not indicated!

2) And when I compare the datas of the two ONEIDA devices with various data sheets for suction turbines, then it is very difficult for me to believe this informations from ONEIDA (which does not mean that it cannot be correct :))
If I look in data sheets of turbines, for suction capacities between 70"WC and 98"WC (which corresponds to about 17 to 25 kpa) and about 250 CFM, then it seems to me that these values ​​cannot be achieved at all (not even with 2 or 3 turbines) ....

For values between 70"WC and 100"WC, you either have to accept a significantly smaller suction opening (10 to 16 mm diameter), compared to the ONEIDA specifications:

Inlet Size:
COBRA: 2-1/2" OD ; 2-1/4" ID
SUPERCELL: 4 "OD (ID size not indicated on ONEIDA homepage)

or if you want to achieve CFM values ​​of 250, you have to accept a significantly lower WC value, in comparison to the ONEIDA datas.

If you look at the CFM and WC values ​​of the ONEIDA devices and put them in relation to the indicated suction diameter, then these suction values are remarkable values ​​.... !!
(If all these indicated values ​​are right..!?)

I cannot imagine that ONEIDA, and other manufacturers, does not use standard turbines from the vcuum cleaner turbine market.
I think, it´s unlikely that they use special custom-made turbines....

If interested on unit convertion, this can help:
https://www.convertunits.com/from/water+column+[inch]/to/kilopascal
https://www.convertunits.com/from/l/s/to/cfm

regards,
KeiKoo
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Re: Dead CamVac motor

Postby Loonie » 30 Dec 2021, 16:42

Hi @KeiKoo,
you are correct, the static pressure in the spec sheets is the maximum available.
From what I heard Oneida is known for their extensive testing and measuring and they provide "true" values, so one can only hope for the best :)

I watched another video about the 3-motor camvac vacuum and those are the results he posted:
Image
While I don't think the absolute numbers are accurate (the camvac doesn't provide 610cfm) I think it's interesting to see that the cfm drops to less than 1/3 on a 2-1/2" outlet vs a 4" outlet.
So, really on a small hose size a 3000W camvac doesn't seem to be much more effective than a strong shop-vac. I would assume that the Supercell would perform in a similar fashion as it is also optimized for a 4" outlet.

The Dust Cobra on the other hand is optimized for smaller hoses and provides 245 CFM suction power and 23"WC (as you have pointed out in your post) on a 2-1/2" hose what is better than any other shopvac I know of can provide.
I looked at the manual again and the Dust Cobra is using a Ametek 7.2" Fan Blower Motor. However, the Ametek website is terrible and I was not able to find those motors. And on other websites cfm was always around 150 cfm.

In conclusion I think that for smaller hose sizes the camvac is most likely not performing much better than a strong shop vac. A fan blower motor similar to the one used in the Dust Cobra might offer better performance (not even talking about the energy consumption of 3000W of the camvac compared to 1705W of the Dust Cobra)

Code: Select all
I cannot imagine that ONEIDA, and other manufacturers, does not use standard turbines from the vcuum cleaner turbine market.

I agree, I don't think the motors are custom, but I do think that they find the right motor for the the right application.
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