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Kick like a mule.

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Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Apr 2022, 16:51

I've had a Makita mitre saw for a good few years now and it is superbly accurate, fine smooth cut, accurate 45 degree stops etc but it really kicks on start up with the risk of losing alignment of the workpiece being held in the other hand. Yes I know there is a clamp but life is too short!

I little while ago over in the other place someone had fitted a soft start module and found a space to tuck it in the machine handle.
I ordered one to play with. Quite a few on the bay and Ali-express so I settled on one reputed rated for 20amps thinking that would be more than enough to handle most of my brush motor tools including the inrush current.
N.B. These are not suitable to be used with induction motors.

It turned up the other day.

Module.jpg
(23.61 KiB)


and close up for the markings

module2.jpg
(17.78 KiB)


I decided I'd make it a standalone unit that I could move from tool to tool as my 9" angle grinder also has a good kick to it.

Firstly take a standard single gang pattress box and fit a cable gland.

pattress & gland.jpg
(31.44 KiB)


Ideally use one without gaping holes!!

Easily fixed with a piece of 3mm oak veneer from the scrap bin.

hole blocked.jpg
(28.41 KiB)


The module has just two connections and so can be fitted either way round and in series with either live or neutral line. One crimp connection later:-

wiring.jpg
(41.8 KiB)


Completed unit with high tech Sharpie label.

complete.jpg
(17.08 KiB)


Here is a quick video of it working with a router as a quick test/demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EP6Rm0CpceE?



This is the unit I bought https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1802pENSnr

There are several types but make sure you get a two wire one for ease of use

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Woodbloke » 29 Apr 2022, 17:26

Sharpie! just finished reading the latest book; apparently the Baker rifle had a kick like a mule as well :lol: - Rob
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Trevanion » 29 Apr 2022, 17:52

That's interesting Bob, I didn't realise you could do this. I know how quickly those little Bosch routers startup so that's a marked improvement. My Metabo mitre saw also has the same problem that there's a bit of a kick on startup so maybe I'll have to give this a shot.
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Doug » 29 Apr 2022, 19:27

Bob you link doesn’t take me to your video just a list of random videos :eusa-think:
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Apr 2022, 19:42

Doug wrote:Bob you link doesn’t take me to your video just a list of random videos :eusa-think:

Thanks Doug. Fixed now
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Cabinetman » 29 Apr 2022, 21:37

That is really clever! And I like that it’s in a socket instead of messing with the tool + you only need one!
But how do you tell which is an induction motor? Ian
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Steve Maskery » 29 Apr 2022, 21:55

Excellent idea Bob. But yes, how do you tell what sort of motor?
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Apr 2022, 22:10

Induction motors are the quiet (ish) ones usually with a capacitor(or two) on the side and almost certainly on fixed machinery.
If the machine is portable, noisy, under say 2000watts and has brushes and a commutator, it is a universal motor and suitable for use with this soft start type system.

HTH
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Steve Maskery » 29 Apr 2022, 22:23

:text-thankyouyellow:
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Jonathan » 30 Apr 2022, 05:51

9fingers wrote:Induction motors are the quiet (ish) ones usually with a capacitor(or two) on the side and almost certainly on fixed machinery.
If the machine is portable, noisy, under say 2000watts and has brushes and a commutator, it is a universal motor and suitable for use with this soft start type system.

HTH
Bob
Excellent thread Bob!

Out of curiosity would this work on bigger motor's like a 2 to 3 kw spindle moulder or extractor?

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Pete Maddex » 30 Apr 2022, 07:11

I have the same makita mitre saw so it looks like I will be ordering at least one.

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 30 Apr 2022, 07:31

Jonathan wrote:
9fingers wrote:Induction motors are the quiet (ish) ones usually with a capacitor(or two) on the side and almost certainly on fixed machinery.
If the machine is portable, noisy, under say 2000watts and has brushes and a commutator, it is a universal motor and suitable for use with this soft start type system.

HTH
Bob
Excellent thread Bob!

Out of curiosity would this work on bigger motor's like a 2 to 3 kw spindle moulder or extractor?

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No as I’ve tried to say above, this type of solution is NOT suitable for the induction motors fitted to fixed machinery such as the ones you cite.
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby the bear » 01 May 2022, 10:16

Filed away for future reference. Out of interest what happens if an induction motor is plugged in inadvertently, does it just start as normal?

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 01 May 2022, 11:25

Are we having reading difficulties chaps? :lol:

What part of “not suitable” is unclear?
Induction motors need that heavy pulse of correct to start and in any case don’t produce much of a kick compared to a brush motor
Generally speaking a kick on starting is only a problem for hand controlled tools and no hand held tool I can think of uses an induction motor.
There is a challenge for you lot!

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby the bear » 01 May 2022, 14:39

No part of it is unclear, just a hypothetical question from me. Sorry Bob

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 01 May 2022, 16:43

the bear wrote:No part of it is unclear, just a hypothetical question from me. Sorry Bob

Mark


Apologies if my reply came over as a bit crabby this morning.
I've not got a spare module so I don't want to try it out on an induction motor. I would expect the module to fail on all but the modest rated induction motors and in any case would just delay the starting process with minimal soft start effect.

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Trevanion » 01 May 2022, 17:08

Wot about me morticer's brushed motor? :D

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 01 May 2022, 17:16

Yes it is a brush motor and not an induction motor **so in theory suitable. I can’t read the current rating on the motor plate though. The module I used is marked as 20amps but I’d like to see a bit of a margin between the motor rated current and the max for the device.
Assuming your machine runs from a 13 amp plug comfortably then you should be fine

**it is just possible your motor is a repulsion start motor, about the only induction motor I know of with brushes

Bob
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Trevanion » 01 May 2022, 17:21

9fingers wrote:Yes it is a brush motor and not an induction motor **so in theory suitable. I can’t read the current rating on the motor plate though. The module I used is marked as 20amps but I’d like to see a bit of a margin between the motor rated current and the max for the device.
Assuming your machine runs from a 13 amp plug comfortably then you should be fine

**it is just possible your motor is a repulsion start motor, about the only induction motor I know of with brushes

Bob


It was a bit of a mickey-take Bob :lol:

While we're talking about it, I don't really know that much about it myself either. It does run off a 13a plug comfortably, but I don't think it's a repulsion start (as a complete layman) as those from what I've seen tend to wind up for a few seconds and make a "pop" sound once up to speed whereas this just simply starts up instantaneously as a regular induction motor would, must be a serious weight to the rotor as it takes a good while to wind-down.
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby Pete Maddex » 04 May 2022, 11:45

This poped up in an email, looks like an induction motor soft start.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... _edm_other

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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby CHJ » 04 May 2022, 12:20

9fingers wrote: I settled on one reputed rated for 20amps thinking that would be more than enough to handle most of my brush motor tools including the inrush current.

This is the unit I bought https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1802pENSnr

There are several types but make sure you get a two wire one for ease of use

Bob


Bob, do you know how the internals function using just 2 'In & Out' wires.' Is it just a thermal 'Negative' resistance module' ?

All devices I've ever used where 3wire, and ones with a heat sink/mounting tab used the Tab as the ground reference.
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 04 May 2022, 12:33

CHJ wrote:
9fingers wrote: I settled on one reputed rated for 20amps thinking that would be more than enough to handle most of my brush motor tools including the inrush current.

This is the unit I bought https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 1802pENSnr

There are several types but make sure you get a two wire one for ease of use

Bob


Bob, do you know how the internals function using just 2 'In & Out' wires.' Is it just a thermal 'Negative' resistance module' ?

All devices I've ever used where 3wire, and ones with a heat sink/mounting tab used the Tab as the ground reference.


I dont think they are NTC resistors as the performance does not seem to vary with different power loads.
I suspect they will be a triac and time delay network on the gate. I've only got the one so I've resisted the temptation to open it up especially as it appears to be potted.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
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Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby DaveL » 04 May 2022, 13:00

Could be something to point Big Clive at and hope he gets one to take apart?
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby John Brown » 21 Oct 2022, 11:23

On this subject, I'm hoping to be able to run my saw(1600W) and/or my bandsaw(450W) from a 3 or 4kW pure sine inverter. One of the inverter manufacturers says their Inverter has a soft start, and that turning on a large appliance before starting the inverter helps with startup. Obviously this won't work with NVR controls. Would a soft start module help in this case?
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Re: Kick like a mule.

Postby 9fingers » 21 Oct 2022, 11:33

John Brown wrote:On this subject, I'm hoping to be able to run my saw(1600W) and/or my bandsaw(450W) from a 3 or 4kW pure sine inverter. One of the inverter manufacturers says their Inverter has a soft start, and that turning on a large appliance before starting the inverter helps with startup. Obviously this won't work with NVR controls. Would a soft start module help in this case?

Sounds like you have some sort of battery to sine wave inverter scheme rather than a conventional 3 phase speed control inverter. I’d advise checking with the manufacturer of the inverter.

Unless you remove the NVR from your machines then you are unlikely to benefit from any in built soft start.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
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