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A new bandsaw channel

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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby Trevanion » 27 Jul 2021, 22:08

But I still don't understand what you're actually getting at, Tom. I use flat-tyred bandsaws on a daily basis and I see absolutely no merit in what that fella is posting on YouTube, he's just showing himself pushing random bits of timber into a bandsaw, nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 27 Jul 2021, 23:08

I guessed as much Trevanion, but reckon yours is at least the size of the Sicar machine, with new tires.

I know it might not make much difference to some like yourself, where a day would be considered wasted by dressing tires, as you could just buy some aswell as the expensive glue, for an hours work in the workshop, but not I.

TBH the Centauro tire I bought leaves a little to be desired, and might need dressing anyway.
Some like yourself might do this on a super lathe.

I am doing some head scratching on how to dress them on the machine in the most guaranteed way I can figure out, as the beam proved to me that I had obviously done this badly before, aswell as having the wheels off the machine which it was also evident.
I'm documenting this in as much detail as I can, warts and all so far, just an attempt to make the best video I can on the subject to help others in the same boat.

My opinion of the lower wheel staying parallel with the machine column will not change,
You'd be surprised how much that 3 or 4mm panel can wobble like a musical saw if its out by a lot.

Maybe it's not very interesting to most,
For those who might have picked up a bargain and have tires needing work, Mario's videos are a great eye opener, as it were.
I've been to hell and back in that regard, absolutely chasing my tail.

I have to say, if it weren't for those Americans posting on the creek, (before that whole subscription thing) I'd be clueless of what I should be expecting, and would have thought differently, like on 99% of the rest of youtube where similar machines are not set up as well.

The results speak for themselves, and it's not a matter of user error, as I see the same thing with powerfeeds involved , where often the machine is struggling, yet the feed rate is slow.
(Admittedly absolutely no knowledge on the subject of those)
so maybe that could be half the problem, but regardless of that, it doesn't change the fact that
the blade is diving into the thrusts and not liking it,
i.e not recovering and staying there, even though a sharp blade used.

I can clog this page with loads of those videos showing that, as it's not just one or two guys doing it.
Come to think of it, I would have a hard time to give you another example of a flat tired machine
running well, apart from Jack Forsbergs channel.
If you were to say... find one other good example of a flat tired machine with a welded steel frame, where the machine is cutting as well,
I don't think I would be able to give you an example.

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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby Woodster » 28 Jul 2021, 12:00

Just to clarify, or perhaps to confuse, I’ve seen mention of flat wheels, crowned wheels, flat tyres and crowned tyres for bandsaws. This guy also talks about “crowning” a flat tyre he’s fitted on a flat wheel.

https://youtu.be/zz04k-GMF38

My modest bandsaw seems to have crowned wheels with flat tyres which I assumed was fairly common on hobby size machines or is it?
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby Steve Maskery » 28 Jul 2021, 12:15

Personaly, I think that on small hobby machine ssuch as most of us here use, crowning makes little, if any, difference, because the blades are so very narrow. The top wheel tilts back and forth with the tracking rod, and so the top describes an arc, similar to a very thick crowned wheel. But as the blade is very narrow (3/8" as opposed to a 4" resaw blade, for example), it hardly matters one jot what the shape of the rubber around it is.

Crowning is helpful on steam-engine-driven machines, or anything else that uses wide, flat belts, but your bandsaw or mine? I don't think it is very significant, it will stil behave as if it were crowned because of the tilt of the top wheel.
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 28 Jul 2021, 17:25

Might make sense for those with a Kity or Inca machine also,

Still having a good think about how to do this the best way
i.e not having a stab in the dark in regards to knowing if the scraper is square to the rim or not.

Guess I wasn't thinking straight the last day, as I have the blade around the back of the block
which is a lot more chattery than if it were in front like the way I've tried before.
as you can have it closer to the block that way.

Screenshot from 2021-07-28 16-52-46.png
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Have since swapped that blue clamp for a deeper f-clamp, under the block this time,
as to give an unhindered access to some sort of tool like a square to check against the plane iron.

The hub of the wheel is not flat, so one can not simply offer a square to it,
and it's very difficult to get a measurement from the rim and the cutter, due to tight quarters.
I planed up a wee stick to fit into there, but it's still not handy.
Will likely sort it the next time I get back at it, or I might just be asking for your opinions.

Yes I could just slide the wheel out, but that's just the top one.
Who wants to do the same with the lower one also.
Checking for uniform tire height.JPG
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Surprised this isn't a bit more common, maybe so in the old books, or the next generation who I presume is Mark Duginske, as guessing Spagnuolo didn't pull that idea out of his rear end.
Curious as to where he got that into from, maybe you guys know?

As evident the beam or an equivalent tool (possibly laser if I am to believe RP),
is an essential tool for this.

Cheers
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby StevieB » 28 Jul 2021, 20:44

I will be honest - I am really struggling to see the problem here. Nobody agonises over the angle of a handsaw relative to the wood, why should we over a bandsaw? The blade is sharp, it cuts the wood, the angle of the blade relative to the table and wood being cut (front to back) surely matters not a jot on a through cut? A scroll saw works on a pendulum action rather than a vertical cut.

For my bandsaw I have always just slapped in the blade, tensioned until I get a nice 'ping' and that's it. I treat the bandsaw as a roughing tool - if you are using it to produce a finished surface, or for stopped cuts such as a shoulder when cutting tenon cheeks for example, then YMMV.
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 28 Jul 2021, 21:54

I get that most regard the bandsaw as mostly a tool for cutting joints or curve cutting, and they buy a machine to suit.
But for anyone who want's a tool to do many jobs like ripping and resawing, as say for a luthier
it might be their only machine apart from a pillar drill and a DC.

An example of the finish of the CT might likely make one resawing want better results,
or for those who don't have the funds to go out and buy a capable machine new, so have to go the second hand route, which if getting one for a few hundred quid, likely the tires need to be addressed.
I know it's only a bit of fun, but the results of the CT is interesting none the less,
I just want a dependable non temperamental machine personally, not looking for this result
although it would be fantastic if it were remotely close using a carbon steel blade.
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby Woodster » 29 Jul 2021, 10:42

Steve Maskery wrote:Personaly, I think that on small hobby machine ssuch as most of us here use, crowning makes little, if any, difference.


It makes you wonder why so many manufacturers make them that way?
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 29 Jul 2021, 18:25

Loads of reasons for small bandsaw manufacturers to have a crowned profile on the wheels.
For running narrow blades without needing as much tracking adjustment if swapping from a narrow to wider blade.
Taking wear from the set into account, and all that fun.

You you need to have the blade tensioned pretty/quite well before you can hand turn those wheels, if using a wider blade.

If you partially tension the blade and hand turn the wheel, the blade will run/jam into the thrust guide and possibly get damaged if one has the side rollers tight.
What would happen if that were powered up, might be a big mess.


I must get Mario to show a picture of his wheels and tire profile.
From looking at a few Sicar top 7 machines, it seems there is a ridge on the wheels on most.
I wonder if his cork tires will be as thin as these ones?
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I'm taking a pot shot guess either his tires are thicker, or his set is very fine,
and they might be in contact the odd time with the wheel rim
(if it is the case the wheel and tire arrangement is identical)

Looking at one of the premium brands of saws around the 5, 6 or 700mm mark (10's and 40's included)
I'm getting the distinct impression that this is might be why I don't see those running as well.
Unless someone can provide me with some link to disprove that.

Thanks
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby Trevanion » 29 Jul 2021, 18:31

TomTrees wrote:What say you


I still have no clue

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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 29 Jul 2021, 18:53

Not knocking any machine in particular, and if I am, it's only the tires possibly being too thin or profiled incorrectly for the job lol:
Have you hands on, or visual experience with both wheel styles, on a rubber tired machine?
Can you recall if those were flat tires?
There's no point in clogging this page with sparky bandsaw videos, is there?

Going to have a look at a few other machines on youtube to back my theory up anyway.
As I said it's only a theory as to why I don't see some of these particular machines running as well.

It doesn't seem apparent that anyone gives a hoot bout (large) bandsaws, which is strange considering how versatile of a machine it is.
You don't seem to be as concerned with those poor poor big bandsaws struggling on youtube,
as with say some other historical and new machines of other types. :eusa-think:

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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby AndyT » 29 Jul 2021, 19:17

My bandsaw doesn't any tires at all. :eusa-whistle:
Should I give up woodworking? ;)
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 29 Jul 2021, 19:33

Your machine you can do what you like.
That might be depending on a few things and who's getting it after you or whomever after that.
I'd sooner dress rubber than cast iron, should it be possible to damage them.
Seems you've got to play by the rules for the blades sake, if those wheels are flat.
Good thing about running the blade where it should be, is increased performance,
ie... better speed of cut, result, less wear, and less noise.
(in which ever order you prefer)

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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby AndyT » 29 Jul 2021, 19:53

Phew! :D
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby AJB Temple » 29 Jul 2021, 21:10

TT, I remain bemused. Bandsaw is among the most simple machines. If I had to faff about dressing tyres on wheels as a fairly adept woodworker, I doubt I would bother. Luckily I have managed to cope with band sawing wood for quite a few years without doing anything much except stick a new blade on now and again, tension it and crack on.

I do not expect my bandsaw to produce a mirror finish. If I am re-sawing, I am not looking to save 10 seconds per cut.

Tom - I am sure you are trying to achieve something, but after three pages of this thread I still have no idea what problem you have that you are trying to solve.
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Re: A new bandsaw channel

Postby TomTrees » 29 Jul 2021, 22:21

Without knocking anyone's machine, what I'm saying is that a video cutting some tall stock shouldn't have to be edited part way through the cut.
It ain't just a few seconds like you suggest though, seems closer to a minute to me, on something say three feet long.
That's quite substantial timewise, not for spending a bit more more time resawing, but the knock on effects for all the rest of the factors I mentioned.

I can show you something close to perfect, or with a CT blade, but as said already I think Mario's is a better channel than all I've seen, regarding what I should have titled "a new resawing channel"

Be nice to see it running a bit quieter though wouldn't it?
Maybe not interesting one bit, that is... for those who regard a large bandsaw as a waste of space for what I presume are "most woodworkers"...

Regardless of what anyone thinks, at least it stands to help someone who can make their own mind up, by actually seeing one of these machines cutting as it should.

All the best
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