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C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

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C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 28 Nov 2020, 02:30

I did think about putting this in my Vintage Wood Machining Books Thread but I thought it was interesting enough to warrant a separate thread.

I recently picked up this little gauge that was advertised as a "level" on eBay, the branding was a dead giveaway it was woodworking machinery related as C.D. Monninger was a prolific manufacturer of circular and band saw blades as well as cutter blocks and other woodworking machinery related paraphernalia.

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Initially, I thought it was a gauge for setting planer knives similar to the one Wadkin used to produce but this seems a bit on the small side, but it does just about work on my surface planer. It's interestingly Swiss-Made rather than British.

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Upon posting a couple of images of it on my Instagram page I was put right that this was actually a gauge for checking the amount of set on a circular saw blade, and in fact, this was supplied by a Swiss Company and re-branded by C.D. Monninger as Wadkin and Jonsered had their own identical versions with their own branding on. Turns out these companies have been buying foreign products and re-branding them long before China became prevalent for it! :lol:

So after all that, I had the opportunity to purchase a rather tatty C.D. Monninger catalogue and I thought it was worth a punt to see if there was any info about my little gauge and sure enough there was.

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The catalogue itself is a very interesting document though, while it is a sales catalogue there is quite a good deal of information about the company and on the use and maintenance of tooling which is rather interesting. I thought I'd post up some pages of it.

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I've been after a tidy example of one of these Diangle blocks for years, they very rarely pop up for sale.

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Unusually, someone has decided to doodle this in the back of the catalogue at some point :eusa-think:

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If anyone wants to see more photos I'm more than happy to put them up, this catalogue is a bit of a treasure trove. It has loads of information and illustrations about saw-doctoring equipment.
Last edited by Trevanion on 21 Aug 2021, 15:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Nov 2020, 07:13

You seem to have the gift of finding these interesting old things. The drawing is really interesting too.

Why would a user want to know the set on a circular saw blade? I suppose this was in the days when you could adjust it. With TCT teeth I would not dream doing that now.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby DaveL » 28 Nov 2020, 09:47

AJB Temple wrote:You seem to have the gift of finding these interesting old things. The drawing is really interesting too.

Why would a user want to know the set on a circular saw blade? I suppose this was in the days when you could adjust it. With TCT teeth I would not dream doing that now.
As a teenager I made fence panels to earn pocket money, for a chap who owned a small but expanding builders/wood yard. In the double garage that was behind my 8' square bench used for panel making were the two Woodworking machines, a 10" table saw and a 12" planer, nether had any guards or dust collection. I cannot remember the make of either, but I do remember how the saw blades were sharpened.
An old oil stone was used to start the process, run gently onto the running blade, which was stopped and then all of the teeth checked to see if they had a flat from contacting the stone. Once that was the case, a single cut file was used to file each tooth to just remove the flat, but maintaining the clearance angle on the top of the tooth. That was a normal quick sharpen, which was done a number of times. Of course this reduced both the set and the size of the gullet.
When the gullets were too small a pencil line was made on the blade showing where they should be and then the edge of the file was used to deepen them.
When the set need to be increased, the blade had to be removed from the saw. The was a quite large steel block that had a curve, I think it had been filled into it. The blade was placed on the block with a tooth over the curve, by eye and then the tooth given a smart wack with a hammer! Once all the alternate teeth had been done it was turned over to do the rest.
Very Heath Robinson but it worked. I stopped being the Panel King 50 years ago when I left school and became an apprentice!
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Nov 2020, 10:04

Thanks Dave. Very interesting explanation. In my life I think I have only ever known circular saws with TCT tipped blades. The very first saw I bought was a Skil saw (of that brand) which I still have in my personal "tool museum" of stuff I should have sold years ago, closely followed by an Elu chop saw (which I also still have but rarely use). I also still have the original blades from both saws. The Elu had really large chunks of TCT let in, and has been professionally re-sharpened a few times now.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby Trevanion » 28 Nov 2020, 15:03

Dave has explained it far better than I could have, with the first-hand experience with the job to boot! I've got a good pamphlet by the department of scientific and industrial research on Circular Saws which has a good image of "stoning" a saw blade which I imagine would've been a pretty cheek-clenching task for the uninitiated!

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The set on an old circular saw was very important to stop the saw binding in the cut much like a handsaw, they also had to be done fairly accurately for clean and effective cutting. These days with TCT the "set" has already been allowed as such by the larger width of carbide relative to the saw plate. I think a big factor in the reduction of table saw accidents involving kickback and injuries has come down to better blade technology that doesn't rely on the craftsman being diligent about more than simply the sharpness of the blade, the old full-steel blades had a habit of not liking being abused and would crack down the gullet, bend or even shed a complete tooth, warp the blade amongst other things. Modern blades by contrast have far more rigid saw plates, laser-cut anti-vibration, and anti-warp slots, chip limiting anti-kickback nodules in front of ripping blades... It's come on a long way!
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby Trevanion » 15 May 2021, 09:42

I finally got my hands on one of these rare beasts, a Monninger Diangle cutter block. A quite unique design as there are two available cutting angles by putting the knife in the opposing side and flipping the block upside down, 30-degrees for softwood and 15-degrees for hardwood.

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I also picked up this Monninger wobble saw a while back:

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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby Cabinetman » 15 May 2021, 10:43

Shouldn’t they have called it a Bi-angle block? Two angles. I like the simplicity of it just being turned over for a different angle of approach/cut. No pins, do take care!
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby Trevanion » 15 May 2021, 12:41

Cabinetman wrote: No pins, do take care!


So long as you don't put too small of a cutter in the block or forget to tighten it up they're pretty safe to use. Accidents usually happened because people would try to get the most out of their cutter steel by constantly grinding different shapes into it until they were smaller than a penny in size and didn't have an adequate surface area to clamp properly, or they would start setting them up and pinch the cutters up only snug tight and would go off to do something else and come back, forget to clamp the cutters properly, start the machine and the cutters would come flying out at around 90mph.

Cabinetman wrote:Shouldn’t they have called it a Bi-angle block? Two angles.


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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, London

Postby Trevanion » 21 Aug 2021, 15:15

I always keep an eye out for stuff from C.D. Monninger, I have a little bit of a soft spot for them as they aren't as well known as Wadkin, Robinson, Sagar, et al... So I keep an eye out for anything related to them. I picked up another beautifully illustrated C.D. Monninger Catalogue from 1926 (It's nice when they're dated!) a while back and I forgot to put it in this thread, so here it is:

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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 25 Aug 2021, 22:00

Another one for the collection, C.D Monninger Catalogue of Saws, Tools, and Woodworking Machinery, 1935.

I think the most interesting part of the catalogue is the selection of unusual cutter blocks and accessories that were available from Whitehill through C.D Monninger, I’ve never seen the Whitehill “Jockey Fence”, Grooving Blocks, or French Head before, they must be exceedingly rare if any of them have survived. I've never been quite sure when the Whitehill cutter block first came into existence (I've tried searching for the patent but I can't find it), I always thought it was sometime in the 40's or thereabouts so to see illustrated examples from 1935 is quite interesting, especially when it says that they've been "thoroughly tried out and tested for over four years" which I would assume puts the original incarnation date about 1930-31.

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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 07 Oct 2021, 23:54

I found this lovely (cast, I think) brass plaque emblazoned with “C.D. Monninger”. I seem to find these items from Monninger, or they find me! Quite a large plaque at 8.5” wide and 4” tall with a fair weight to it, it would be interesting to know where it came from or what it came off, was it off the front door of C.D Monninger’s head office? Off a machine they supplied? Has somebody made this a week ago and set out to fleece me? I have no idea, probably never will either!

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Just need to figure out what to do with it now :eusa-think:
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Mike G » 08 Oct 2021, 07:32

Facinating stuff, Dan, but I'm afraid I can contribute absolutely nothing. That plaque looks immaculate.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Andyp » 08 Oct 2021, 07:56

The fact that the post code is just EC indicates, I think, that it is an address older than 1917 when it appears that numerics were first used.

https://www.postcodearea.co.uk/facts/history/

Not sure of that helps any.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 08 Oct 2021, 09:48

Andyp wrote:The fact that the post code is just EC indicates, I think, that it is an address older than 1917 when it appears that numerics were first used.

https://www.postcodearea.co.uk/facts/history/

Not sure of that helps any.


That’s definitely interesting Andy! The catalogues above are from 1926 and 1935 and both say “EC1” so maybe you’re right. C.D. Monninger was established in 1867 but I’m not sure if they operated out of St Anna Works back then but they were definitely there in 1914 going by what I can find online. There seems to be a large potential that this plaque is over 100 years old!

Mike G wrote:Facinating stuff, Dan, but I'm afraid I can contribute absolutely nothing. That plaque looks immaculate.


It’s a little dinged up around the edges and it’s a bit bent on one side where it seems to have been overtighted with a screw, but otherwise it’s in very nice condition compared to some others I’ve seen from Wadkin or Robinson etc...
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Andyp » 08 Oct 2021, 10:10

I am sure you noticed that the right hand screw hole is larger than the one on the left. I can't imagine why. Curious
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 08 Oct 2021, 10:13

Andyp wrote:I am sure you noticed that the right hand screw hole is larger than the one on the left. I can't imagine why. Curious


Yes, that’s the side that’s slightly bent by a screw and the countersink or whathaveyou of the screw has pushed the outer edges of the hole outwards of the back so it looks larger.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Oct 2021, 13:27

That plaque is really nice.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby AndyT » 10 Oct 2021, 20:21

Dan, I've done a bit of digging to see what ancestry.com could tell me about the Monninger locations. Here's a summary of most of the directory entries it showed:

1875 - Post office London Directory: Monninger, Chas. D., manufr of french band saws & band knives, contractor to dockyard & army clothing department, 10 & 11 Ray street, Clerkenwell E C

1880 - Post office London Directory: Monninger, Charles Dietrich, St. Annas saw & file Works Farringdon road EC

1885 - Post Office London Directory: Monninger, Charles Dietrich, mfr of band & circular saws, emery wheels, files &c, contractor to dockyards & principal railway carriage works, St Anna saw & file works, Clerkenwell road EC (next Italian Church)

1895 - Post Office London Directory: Monninger, Charles Dietrich, mfr of band & circular saws, woodworkers' tools, emery wheels, files &c, St Anna saw & file works, Clerkenwell road EC (next Italian Church)

1900 - Post Office London Directory: [listed under saw makers] Monninger, Charles Dietrich 124 & 126 Clerkenwell road EC

1905 - Post Office London Directory [listed under bandsaw makers] Monninger, Charles Dietrich 124 & 126 Clerkenwell road EC

1921- Hughes´ Business Directory: Monninger, Charles D Ltd, saw manufrs 59 Farringdon Rd EC1

There was also an earlier entry in the 1870 Post office London Directory which said:

Monninger, Charles D., clocks & french fancy goods importer 9 Great Sutton street E C; & 21 Rue d'Hauteville, Paris

I think it's likely to be the same man - it's hardly a common name - and perhaps explains that odd reference to "french band saws" five years later.

A family tree shared on ancestry.com, gave me the information that although known to us as Charles Dietrich Monninger, he was born Karl Dieterich Monninger on 13 October 1833 in Gemmingen, Baden-Württemberg, Germany.

He's on several London electoral registers as living in Ray Street and then in Enfield but I can only find him in one census - 1891, living in Enfield, aged 57, widowed, with his 8 year old daughter, a cook and a housemaid. His occupation was given as "Saw and File Manufacturer."

He died on 12 June 1908 at home in "Jesmond" The Ridgeway, Enfield, Middlesex and left effects worth £7, 818 to his unmarried daughter Julie Margaret Caroline Monninger.

Having found all that myself, I belatedly thought to look in Simon Barley's reference book on British Saws and Saw Makers. His entry there reads:

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Monninger, C.D. Ltd, London
10 & 11 Ray Street, Clerkenwell 1875-1877
St Ann's Saw Works, Hatton Wall, Farringdon Road 1878
St Ann's Saw & File Works, Hatton Wall, Farringdon Road 1879-1882

This saw and file making company had several other addresses in the same area until 1967, with additional premises (probably manufacturing) at Averbury Road, Tewkewsbury Road, South Tottenham from 1922 to 1938; this second area was home to several other saw manufacturing firms in the 20th century (see Day, Roberts & Lee, Turpin and William Tyzack). Thier 1926 catalogue is largely devoted to woodworking machinery. Their trademark was evidently a condor.
------

I had a bit of a poke around on old maps, to try and make sense of the addresses. I think they didn't really move very far. Ray Street is still there, but it looks like the even numbered (Northern) side of the street has all been redeveloped. Farringdon Road and Clerkenwell Road intersect. St Peter's RC Chapel must be the Italian Church - it's specifically shown as Italian on the 1940s map. You'll see that there was a big timber yard close by, and the whole area was peppered with small furniture making workshops.

Ray St etc 1890s.jpg
1890s map
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Ray St etc 1940s.jpg
1940s map
(595.97 KiB)


This last map is zoomed out a bit to show a wider area, but with the Italian Church near the middle. Each blue dot is a furniture maker, active after 1840, recorded by the The British and Irish Furniture Makers Online (BIFMO) project, accessible through layersoflondon.org.

wider area w furniture makers.jpg
Plenty of customers needing saws etc
(400.86 KiB)


I've just noticed that Hatton Wall (as in the BSSM entry) is just south of the Italian Church, on the other side of Clerkenwell Road, connecting Leather Lane and Hatton Garden - an area better known for more precious metal than saws are made of.

I hope this helps!
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 10 Oct 2021, 20:44

Ah, AndyT! I sent you a non-related email about the exact same time as you posted that :lol:

Very interesting, I wonder how Monninger is pronounced if it is a German name. In my head, I've been calling it Mon-nin-jer, but I could be completely wrong.

According to the 1925 catalogue which I'm only realising now, their offices were at 59 Farringdon Road, but their works were in Tottenham (St Anna Works), Islington, and Sheffield. In the 1935 catalogue the offices are still at 59 Farringdon Road but the factory is St. Anna Works, Tottenham.

I guess the dating of the plaque can be roughly narrowed down by your post, in 1875 up until 1905 the directory states he's in 124 & 126 Clerkenwell Road EC but in 1921 the directory states 59 Farringdon Road, and by Andy's post we know that the postcodes were numbered after 1917. So it must be from somewhere between 1875 and 1917 roughly. So it is definitely at least 100 years old.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby AndyT » 10 Oct 2021, 21:28

It does rather look like they used the same "St Anna Works" name for different places. Here's an 1887 Insurance map at the British Library which shows who occupied each premises, zoomed in on 124 Clerkenwell Road. It's clearly labelled as "St Anna Wks Grindery"

St Anna Wks 1887 Goad.jpg
St Anna Works at 124 Clerkenwell Road
(146.91 KiB)


If you click on this link you should be able to move around the map and also find that 10 and 11 Ray Street were both on the northern side of the street.

https://britishlibrary.georeferencer.co ... 422f/view#

It's only a guess, but given that Herr Monninger married Anna Karoline Henriette Knorr in Germany in 1861 but she died young in 1875, the name Anna may well have had powerful emotional meaning for him.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby AndyT » 10 Oct 2021, 22:56

A few more bits of trivia before I go and do something more useful.

That Italian Church was built in 1863. That 1887 map - the pink one - shows it entirely hemmed in by timber yards and warehouses and suchlike. Not long after, the SW corner was concealed by big retail premises, Terroni & Sons, an Italian deli since 1878. The church itself is barely visible. No special listed building controls or zoning applied, by the looks of it; there was money to be made. Victorian London was a big manufacturing centre, with raw materials coming in through the expanding docks and a ready domestic market for its goods.

Charles Monninger seems to have had quite a hard life, even if he was successful commercially. His father died when he was 1, his mother when he was 7. He married aged 27 in 1861, in Heilbronn, Württemberg. His one daughter was born in London in 1865 and baptized in the Islington German Evangelical Church, so that gives us a date range for his move to England.

His wife, Anna, died in 1875. His daughter inherited his money and later married a 67 year old widower from Bristol when she was 53.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Andyp » 11 Oct 2021, 06:50

Fascinating research going on her chaps. Thanks for an interesting read.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 31 Mar 2022, 20:27

I bought another C.D. Monninger catalogue, this one is a fair bit smaller than the other ones I have, though being dated as 1947 I'm guessing that post-war rationing may have had an effect on the size something like this could be? Still a great little catalogue nonetheless, some very interesting bits in it, in particular what seems to be the introduction of the Monninger Diangle cutter block, though the patent for the block itself went through in 1942 it may have not gone out on the open market during the war.

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Patent Drawing for the Monninger Diangle Cutter Block:

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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby AndyT » 31 Mar 2022, 22:33

Nice.
I find those old catalogues, with their carefully considered text, posed photos and well-spaced Gill Sans text, oddly calming.
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Re: C.D. Monninger LTD, St Anna Works, London

Postby Trevanion » 31 Mar 2022, 22:57

AndyT wrote:Nice.
I find those old catalogues, with their carefully considered text, posed photos and well-spaced Gill Sans text, oddly calming.


Something I've been wondering about these catalogues, in particular, are the images as they sort of look like photos but at the same time also look drawn? Take for instance the Climax Saw Guard, it looks almost too detailed to have been drawn, but at the same time it doesn't look detailed enough for a photograph, and I've found this with other catalogues too.
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