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Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

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Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 24 May 2021, 20:04

I’m looking at a Wadkin BER2 with 1 1/4 shaft, in need of a top bearing, I think.

I already have quite a bit of 30mm bore tooling, and would prefer this size shaft as I can always shim up to 11/4, but not the other way around.

Is it feasible to get the shaft taken down in size?
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2021, 20:39

I can't see a problem. Seems so straight forward I'm left wondering if I've over looked something.
What is your concern causing you to ask?

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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 24 May 2021, 20:44

9fingers wrote:I can't see a problem. Seems so straight forward I'm left wondering if I've over looked something.
What is your concern causing you to ask?

Bob

I’m not sure where I would take it to get done. Also, I haven’t seen any SMs for sale that have had this done. Why would you keep a 11/4 shaft when 30mm opens you up to a massive range of modern tooling, and a couple of £20 bushes allow you to keep the old tooling? I wondered if the shafts were hollow and not machinable, too.

I’m looking to upgrade from my Charnwood cheapo model, which has been extremely usefuI, but can’t find a decent spindle that has a flush sliding table.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2021, 21:00

Guineafowl21 wrote:
9fingers wrote:I can't see a problem. Seems so straight forward I'm left wondering if I've over looked something.
What is your concern causing you to ask?

Bob

I’m not sure where I would take it to get done. Also, I haven’t seen any SMs for sale that have had this done. Why would you keep a 11/4 shaft when 30mm opens you up to a massive range of modern tooling, and a couple of £20 bushes allow you to keep the old tooling? I wondered if the shafts were hollow and not machinable, too.

I’m looking to upgrade from my Charnwood cheapo model, which has been extremely usefuI, but can’t find a decent spindle that has a flush sliding table.


Most towns have a small jobbing engineering firms tucked away on an industrial estate who would do it.
Machines that have had it done would just be advertised as 30mm.
Have a word with Wallace (aka Mark) who knows all about wadkin kit. He might even have one around?

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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 24 May 2021, 21:25

Ah, I see that we're looking to upgrade from the little Charnwood 8-)

The shaft would be solid steel so it would be completely feasible for a decent engineering firm to turn down the shaft to 30mm provided it's not hardened steel, although I don't think Wadkin ever had hardened steel shafts on their machines, it's more a modern thing with higher-end machines. The only thing with turning down a shaft is that the thread on top will need to be adapted too and a new nut made to suit, again, a decent engineering firm can do this although you're getting into quite expensive work, especially when it has to run very straight otherwise the machine will be dancing down the road with tooling put on it :lol:

I saw a single-phase Wilson Spindle Moulder on eBay the other day, a 33mm shaft which was a really odd size I'd never seen before, but it came with a lot of tooling to make up for it.

A BER2 is quite a nice little machine, If I remember rightly you can actually pull the shafts out of these and put in other ones such as 30mm, 1", stub length, extra-long, French spindle, etc... if you can find one. If anyone has one or knows of one it would be Wallace the Wadkin Prophet :D.

On sliding tables, machinery with integral ones that we're familiar with are fairly newish, I'd suspect the oldest ones being from the late 80's being from Felder and such. What are quite handy but are quite rare to get a hold of and very sought after are tenoning tables that you bolt down to the moulder table like this one:

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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 24 May 2021, 21:47

I’ve rattled Wallace’s cage - let’s see if he comes out :mrgreen:

Yes, Trevanion, I’ve found I use the Charnwood for almost everything, but of course it’s a bit lacking:

- Power 2hp, could do with a bit more since it has stalled on some big architrave mouldings I’ve been doing for someone.
- Table is a bit small - roller stands can only do so much.
- Fence is awful.
- Rise and fall has more backlash than an old Land Rover

On the plus side, it has the sliding table which I can’t really do without - tenoning, raising panels (end grain), moulding end grain... Also a very useful set of drum sanders. It came with a rolling stand and rebate and moulding blocks too. A very useful package that gave me a good introduction to the spindle moulder.

Ideal spindle moulder:
- 30 mm shaft
- 3hp
- Flush sliding table with clamp
- Tilt possibly useful, but not essential
- Under £1000 :o

There’s an SCM t120 for sale, but it’s a bit of a big beast for me.

Of course, another Wadkin is tempting, as it will go nicely with my RBD, BRA and 1980s ‘Wadkin’ router. :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 24 May 2021, 22:14

Guineafowl21 wrote: - Power 2hp, could do with a bit more since it has stalled on some big architrave mouldings I’ve been doing for someone.


Did you try lowering the spindle speed? That adds quite a bit of power to the cutting although you do need to feed slower to achieve the same finish.

Guineafowl21 wrote: - Table is a bit small - roller stands can only do so much.
- Fence is awful.
- Rise and fall has more backlash than an old Land Rover


You can see why Charnwoods are considered quite an "agricultural" machine, they get the job done reasonably but leave a lot to be desired in fit, finish, and longevity of parts (lever handles are made from the finest cheddar). But as you say, it has been a good machine to learn on, realise its shortcomings and decide on what the next best step is.

Guineafowl21 wrote:Ideal spindle moulder:
- 30 mm shaft
- Flush sliding table with clamp
- Tilt possibly useful, but not essential
- Under £1000 :o


Err.... No. :lol:

In an ideal world, I think a Hammer F3 would be a suitable candidate if you were looking for new, but you're talking quite a lot of money at just over £3000, even if you managed to buy one secondhand it would be a small fortune as Felder/Hammer machines tend to hold value just like Festool for some daft reason.

Bargains are out there if you keep your ear to the ground though, I recently picked up an older Sedgwick GW (3HP, with an unusual 1100mm long table) with a power feeder unit for the princely sum of £500, although it does need a lot of work, total rebuild.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 24 May 2021, 22:19

“...an older Sedgwick GW (3HP, with an unusual 1100mm long table) with a power feeder unit for the princely sum of £500, although it does need a lot of work, total rebuild.”

Stick it on a pallet for me :lol:
I don’t mind a project, so will keep a look out for a similar bargain.

I weighed in some scrap last week, and spotted a 1950s Wolf bench grinder on the heap. £10, and all it needed was the wire to the cap re-attaching!
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Doug71 » 24 May 2021, 23:17

I replaced an Elektra Beckum spindle moulder that had a 30mm shaft with an old Wadkin BER2 which luckily came with a few 11/4 blocks, the blocks cover all I need really so I lent a friend my 30mm blocks, don't know if I will ever see them again!

The BER2 is a nice piece of kit, basic but does all I need, a sliding table would be nice though.

It looks like AMS will sell you a replacement 30mm shaft, only £335+VAT........

https://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/mac ... s-8337-224
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 24 May 2021, 23:28

Doug71 wrote:I replaced an Elektra Beckum spindle moulder that had a 30mm shaft with an old Wadkin BER2 which luckily came with a few 11/4 blocks, the blocks cover all I need really so I lent a friend my 30mm blocks, don't know if I will ever see them again!

The BER2 is a nice piece of kit, basic but does all I need, a sliding table would be nice though.

It looks like AMS will sell you a replacement 30mm shaft, only £335+VAT........

https://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/mac ... s-8337-224

Back to my original question - why would anyone pay that amount if the shaft can be machined for a reasonable price?
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 24 May 2021, 23:41

Guineafowl21 wrote:Back to my original question - why would anyone pay that amount if the shaft can be machined for a reasonable price?


AMS like most spares merchants, are overpriced. A belt you can buy from a belt supplier would cost you £10, but it will cost you £30 with AMS. I think they bought all the detailed spare part diagrams when Wadkin went under, so they've got the monopoly on those.

But it depends on what you call reasonable, most engineering workshops will want £50/h unless you find some hobbyist who will do it on the cheap for a bit of fun. You've got to mount the thing in the lathe, get it centred perfectly on the drive end and the tailstock end, ensure that both ends are indeed perfectly in-line so that you don't turn a taper along its length, then you turn it down to 30mm (or 29.90-95mm, which is common), then you need to re-cut the threads at the top deeper which'll require setting up for thread cutting at an unusual size as you'll probably be working to a Whitworth pitch on a metric diameter, then you need to make the nut to match. This will take a fair amount of time to pull off.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Doug71 » 25 May 2021, 00:01

Trevanion wrote:
AMS like most spares merchants, are overpriced. A belt you can buy from a belt supplier would cost you £10, but it will cost you £30 with AMS.


It's £79.50 ex vat for the little flat belt on a BER2 from AMS :shock:

https://www.advancedmachinery.co.uk/mac ... h-1108-224
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby RogerS » 25 May 2021, 05:05

Wouldn't it be quicker/better/cheaper just to buy a couple of used 1 1/4 blocks off eBay ?
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby wallace » 25 May 2021, 08:28

I've been having a purge of junk, I mean spares, I came across a few spindles but haven't checked sizes yet. I think they might be off an EQ spindle.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby 9fingers » 25 May 2021, 08:44

wallace wrote:I've been having a purge of junk, I mean spares, I came across a few spindles but haven't checked sizes yet. I think they might be off an EQ spindle.


Mark. If you don’t have one I wonder if doubleboost John might be able to do the machining for the op?


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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 25 May 2021, 10:14

RogerS wrote:Wouldn't it be quicker/better/cheaper just to buy a couple of used 1 1/4 blocks off eBay ?

Certainly an option, but I’d lose my Frezite cabinet door stack, panel raiser and drum sanders. With a 30mm spindle and top hats I can use pretty much anything 30mm and up.

Here is the machine, if anyone’s interested:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334004339335 ... SwH8FgolMT

Reading between the lines, and looking at the price, it will probably need some work, and doesn’t appear to come with spacers or top nut. The T slot might just replace the sliding table, if I can find a track to fit.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby wallace » 25 May 2021, 16:23

9fingers wrote:
wallace wrote:I've been having a purge of junk, I mean spares, I came across a few spindles but haven't checked sizes yet. I think they might be off an EQ spindle.


Mark. If you don’t have one I wonder if doubleboost John might be able to do the machining for the op?


Bob


I'm sure John would be up for doing it, He's changed job recently to give himself more time tinkering.

I'm sure I know some one who has recently done this to a spindle.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 25 May 2021, 16:40

wallace wrote:
9fingers wrote:
wallace wrote:I've been having a purge of junk, I mean spares, I came across a few spindles but haven't checked sizes yet. I think they might be off an EQ spindle.


Mark. If you don’t have one I wonder if doubleboost John might be able to do the machining for the op?


Bob


I'm sure John would be up for doing it, He's changed job recently to give himself more time tinkering.

I'm sure I know some one who has recently done this to a spindle.

Hi Wallace - if you have a chance to look at the listing I’d like your opinion. At that price there’ll no doubt be some problems, but there would be some budget left over for repairs/upgrades, particularly a T slot sliding table.

I hadn’t realised the older machines have an externally threaded spindle, as Trevanion pointed out. Mine has internal threads and a normal bolt/setscrew, which would simplify turning it down to size. If it’s easier to drill and tap the end with a metric thread, then that would be fine.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 25 May 2021, 18:37

Guineafowl21 wrote:Here is the machine, if anyone’s interested:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334004339335 ... SwH8FgolMT

Reading between the lines, and looking at the price, it will probably need some work, and doesn’t appear to come with spacers or top nut. The T slot might just replace the sliding table, if I can find a track to fit.


I'd personally leave it unless you could get it for £300 or even less. I'm not sure what bearings they used on the BER line and they may be straightforward metric deep grooves, but the ones on the older EPs and EQs are seriously expensive to get a hold of as they were really obscure imperial sizes that aren't really made anymore, I think a set for an EP/EQ spindle will set you back over £500 buying new bearings.

A set of spacers will set you back a fair bit too, I think a set for a whole spindle would cost about £100.It looks like the original knobs for the independent fence adjustment and have been replaced with homemade T-handles, you're going to have to have a duct made to attach to the back of the fence to reduce it from a square opening to a round hole so you can fit an extraction pipe, and the paint job also leaves a little to be desired for! :lol: Other than that there are no glaring issues with it.

I'd be buying that SCM T110 L'invincible spindle that's currently sat at £500 with 20 hours to go. That particular generation of SCM machines were absolutely nuclear blast proof with seriously heavy duty castings, possibly even beating out the majority of the stuff Wadkin put out in terms of durability. They don't say what size shaft it is though, although I think they're fairly easy to get a hold of from SCM directly as I don't think they've changed the way they mount them in the machine. It's a bit dirty, I don't understand people who don't clean machines before selling them, give it a once over with some solvent cleaner and it will look a lot better and will in turn sell better!
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 25 May 2021, 19:07

I saw that SCM - wondered why all the pics are blurred and repeated. Not a careful owner, by the look of things.

I’ve sent a few questions, anyway.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 25 May 2021, 21:22

Guineafowl21 wrote:I saw that SCM - wondered why all the pics are blurred and repeated. Not a careful owner, by the look of things.

I’ve sent a few questions, anyway.


Just bear in mind that it is a bit of a monster, It'll have a 4KW motor driving the spindle. A more suitable machine possibly would be the T100 or a Minimax T40 if you can find one, nice medium-sized machines with a 3KW motor and quite frequently have a sliding carriage on the front/back.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby wallace » 26 May 2021, 08:14

Personally I would make a cheeky offer, the manual says they came with 3Omm spindles. The bearing is not an issue either because they are metric and cheap. Like trevannion said on older stuff like the EQ they used high precision oil mist bearings which cost a fortune to replace. There was an EQ on facebook going cheap, £35O.
I dont have any experience with this moulder but it looks like a decent medium duty lump, It might suffer similar problems like machines of similar ilk like the AGS where they have issues with the raising gears if they havent been maintained properly.
I remembered the guys name who altered his own spindle to 3Omm. A guy named Burt Kwouk he frequents the 'wadkin appreciation' group on facebook. He's a dab hand at machining by all accounts.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 27 May 2021, 15:46

Well, I put in an offer on the Wadkin, but it expired. I chased the seller, then the listing was ended ‘because the item is lost or broken’.

Weird.

There are these ones:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153765605196 (SCM t120C)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274799542137 (SCM t110)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324641791683 (Sedgwick SM3ii)

I wonder if the large SCMs could be downrated with smaller motor? Hard to know until you try it, I suppose.

The T110 has no brake so I assume it’s cheap because it can’t be used in a workplace, but is too big for a hobby shop. I know of a Crompton DC brake, 4kW, on sale secondhand. I’m tempted to buy it, tart it up, fit a brake and sell it on.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Cabinetman » 27 May 2021, 21:38

I have the older version of that Sedgwick, actually much older! Still going strong no problems whatsoever, mine is the inch and a quarter, not sure what that one will be but it doesn’t look too bad to me. Ian :cry:
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 27 May 2021, 22:23

Guineafowl21 wrote:Well, I put in an offer on the Wadkin, but it expired. I chased the seller, then the listing was ended ‘because the item is lost or broken’.

Weird.


Might've accidentally relisted it after already selling it, or something like that.

Guineafowl21 wrote:(SCM t120C)
(SCM t110)
(Sedgwick SM3ii)


That T120 is a beauty of a machine, especially with its cast integral sliding table. Again though, it's an absolute monster space, weight and power-wise, not to mention that it's a gigantic jump up for someone who's currently using a Charnwood! :lol:

You don't see many Sedgwick SM3IIs, I don't think they made them for particularly long, or at least they weren't as popular as the SM4IIs were as they're fairly common. If you're going to go for a Sedgwick, ideally get an older one as it will be built better than later iterations because to keep the price down they continually lower the build quality slightly, not enough to make it a bad machine but just little things. But not so old that the method of adjusting the spindle height is to open the door in the front and adjust it on the inside, that was just a bad idea!

Guineafowl21 wrote:The T110 has no brake so I assume it’s cheap because it can’t be used in a workplace, but is too big for a hobby shop. I know of a Crompton DC brake, 4kW, on sale secondhand. I’m tempted to buy it, tart it up, fit a brake and sell it on.


Brakes?! Where we're going, we don't need brakes 8-)

But yes, if it doesn't stop in 10 seconds it would be a big no-no in a commercial setting if the H&S crusader comes along.

Where I used to work, we had a few Martin spindle moulders, outstanding build quality, the best I have and most likely will ever use. These had some form of oil-fed bearings on them rather than conventional sealed greased-for-life that you get in everything these days and they ran silently when there wasn't a block put on the machine, and even with a block with very little air disturbance (like a rebate block) they ran very quietly, and the brake would come to a halt in a second or two. When the brake wasn't on, however, with a heavy block (again, a steel rebate block) the spindle would take several minutes to come to a complete stop :lol:

The right machine will show up one day, just keep an eye out! Something worth checking from time to time are sites like https://auctionnews.com or https://www.bidspotter.co.uk as they're not as heavily trafficked as eBay and Facebook, so long as you take into account all the auction fees you can end up with a bargain.
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