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Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 27 May 2021, 22:52

Oi! I may use a Charnwood but my other machines are Wadkins and Multicos :lol:

I spent a whole weekend shunting stuff around to fit in that dirty great Wadkin BRA, and now I have excess space that might just fit an SCM T120. I can’t see, in principle, why it couldn’t be fitted with a smaller motor.

I wonder if those Martin bearings are an exercise in engineering prowess, rather than a pragmatic choice - after all, good standard versions will last literally a lifetime, and are cheap and easy to replace. My Wadkin RB ones are likely the best part of 100 years old, and there is no play or roughness.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 27 May 2021, 23:23

Guineafowl21 wrote:I can’t see, in principle, why it couldn’t be fitted with a smaller motor.


No real reason why not, except for being sacrilegious and all...

Guineafowl21 wrote:I wonder if those Martin bearings are an exercise in engineering prowess, rather than a pragmatic choice - after all, good standard versions will last literally a lifetime, and are cheap and easy to replace. My Wadkin RB ones are likely the best part of 100 years old, and there is no play or roughness.


The whole machine was an exercise in engineering prowess and I could go on about it for ages. Something that was a complete marvel was how the table rings adjusted for the opening in the table, there were two rings, a larger one that had an eccentric hole in it and a smaller one inside that one which somehow when you turned a switch on the control panel would close or open the gap in front of the cutter block, you can see it in action in this video:



By comparison, the Italian SCM machines tend to just have a sliding section about 8" wide in front of the cutter block that's adjusted with a winding handle, there's nothing really to go wrong with that but it just isn't as special as the "Martin Way".
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 28 May 2021, 10:36

Very nice :shock:

That SCM has a 7.5hp motor - I’m looking to shape wood, not propel garden machinery :P

Eyes still open...
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby heimlaga » 28 May 2021, 21:32

My SCM l'Invincibile T160 has a 5,5kW motor. I have found the large motor to be an advantage when running profiles using for hours on end using the feeder. A smaller motor would run very hot inside a cabinet shaped machine frame under those conditions.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 29 May 2021, 09:15

heimlaga wrote:My SCM l'Invincibile T160 has a 5,5kW motor. I have found the large motor to be an advantage when running profiles using for hours on end using the feeder. A smaller motor would run very hot inside a cabinet shaped machine frame under those conditions.

It would certainly give me plenty of headroom.

My little 2hp spindle is running a steel 125mm Whitehill block with 55mm ‘B’ knives at full height and full depth. The intention was to cut off the bulk with an angled rip on the tablesaw, but with only basic pressure springs and a home made featherboard, I opted to keep the extra reference surface for a more stable pass through the moulder.

If I pushed too fast (I am the power feed), it would offer to stall, but a slow, steady feed rate worked fairly well. The aim was to keep the motor singing the same note. Several light passes would have been better, but the moulding required several passes with different/flipped over knives anyway, so it would have been hard to get the exact profile match I needed.

So I have two options - try a lower spindle speed, or get a bigger machine :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby wallace » 29 May 2021, 13:55

You never know it might go for peanuts

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154471313189 ... Swo35gr6BD
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 29 May 2021, 14:03

wallace wrote:You never know it might go for peanuts

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154471313189 ... Swo35gr6BD

Watching!

One wonders if there is a tax on pictures and words...

I’m still tempted by that SCM T120C, no power feed but nice sliding table. 11/4” spindle but with a possibility of turning it to 30mm. If I can get it for £1600 +VAT it’s unlikely I’ll need to upgrade again :mrgreen:

No tilt, which is fine, and no reverse, but I’m sure I could use a DPDT switch to add reverse. :eusa-think:
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 29 May 2021, 14:40

Guineafowl21 wrote:
wallace wrote:You never know it might go for peanuts

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154471313189 ... Swo35gr6BD

Watching!

One wonders if there is a tax on pictures and words...


I saw that one, only reason I didn't put it up here as it seems to be missing one fence, perhaps Mr. Wallace has one in his junk pile :D. They're a bit clumsy to set up as the fences are independent of each other rather than the more modern conventional "horseshoe" arrangement, this is fine if you use a lot of false fences but if you use it with just the aperture between both fences open it's a pain to ensure both fences are co-planar with each other for every job. But a good machine nonetheless. Doesn't hurt to ask for more photos and question whether the other fence is with it.

Guineafowl21 wrote:I’m still tempted by that SCM T120C, no power feed but nice sliding table. 11/4” spindle but with a possibility of turning it to 30mm. If I can get it for £1600 +VAT it’s unlikely I’ll need to upgrade again :mrgreen:


I'd personally buy a shaft off SCM rather than having it turned down, it'll be a hell of an investment but it will add more value to the machine also, as well as being perfectly concentric because SCM cylindrically grind their shafts very accurately. Then you have both 1 1/4" and 30mm shafts with spacers and nuts for the machine, which adds value.

Guineafowl21 wrote:No tilt, which is fine, and no reverse, but I’m sure I could use a DPDT switch to add reverse. :eusa-think:


Reverse is a handy feature on occasion, but I would be careful on what machine you try it on. An SCM should be fine as the shafts are very well secured in their tapered sockets with two threads top and bottom, A Sedgwick shaft however is held in place with a right-hand threaded drawbolt through the assembly out the bottom, I reckon if you applied reverse cutting forces to this it would actually unthread the shaft from it's socket, which would be a bit catastrophic!
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby wallace » 30 May 2021, 09:27

I think there's abit shill bidding going on with that wadkin. There's no way you get 59 bids
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 30 May 2021, 10:31

wallace wrote:I think there's abit shill bidding going on with that wadkin. There's no way you get 59 bids

Someone called 1***d (0 feedback) is bidding against themselves. There are some weirdos about.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 30 May 2021, 11:05

To be fair, on things I want to buy I bid up in the smallest increment possible with each bid and the biggest number I got to was 80 bids. It’s a good tactic as it makes other people think the seller is bidding it up and then they lose interest in it :lol:
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby 9fingers » 30 May 2021, 11:17

I find sniping is the best tactic. Set a figure for the snipe whereby you won't feel you have overpaid and forget about it. the sniper will tell you either if you are outbid during the auction and you can revise your snip or they with email you as a winner. No win no fee

It can achieve low winning bids on items with little interest or just lots of watchers. I'm convinced that there are ebay buyers who sit up and pay attention when a bid is made so sniping gets rid of those competitors.

Another good feature is a bid group where you set individual snipes of each of a group of similar items and tell the sniper how many you want. It stops bidding when your requirement is satisfied.

Let me know if you would like a link. If you use it we both get a few free snipes

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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby MJ80 » 31 May 2021, 07:40

I'd like to post a word of warning on this subject. I had a big Italien cmc machine when I bought into the trend system and got it on a 30mm shaft. I used top hats to reduce my existing tooling down. No problem.
I sold that machine and setup and got a little SCM which was lovely and running 1 1/4. So I took all the 30 heads I'd got my neighbouring engineering shop and had them taken out to run on 1 1/4. Happy days.
Then I moved to Germany and had all my tooling in boxes for ages. I picked up a really old cast iron Panhans (which has the most awful insane fence ever) with a powerfeed as an interim machine to get up and running. Took a profile block out, saw 30mm and dropped it on the shaft, set up ready to go. Turned the machine on and get wound up, starts making the most awful noise and the shaft comes rising up out the machine and it the whole machine starts going for a walk across the floor. Needless to say by this point I've hit the deck and doing everything I can to kill the power.
So lesson learned, try not to forget when you have had a bright idea.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 31 May 2021, 21:58

MJ80 wrote:I'd like to post a word of warning on this subject. I had a big Italien cmc machine when I bought into the trend system and got it on a 30mm shaft. I used top hats to reduce my existing tooling down. No problem.
I sold that machine and setup and got a little SCM which was lovely and running 1 1/4. So I took all the 30 heads I'd got my neighbouring engineering shop and had them taken out to run on 1 1/4. Happy days.
Then I moved to Germany and had all my tooling in boxes for ages. I picked up a really old cast iron Panhans (which has the most awful insane fence ever) with a powerfeed as an interim machine to get up and running. Took a profile block out, saw 30mm and dropped it on the shaft, set up ready to go. Turned the machine on and get wound up, starts making the most awful noise and the shaft comes rising up out the machine and it the whole machine starts going for a walk across the floor. Needless to say by this point I've hit the deck and doing everything I can to kill the power.
So lesson learned, try not to forget when you have had a bright idea.

Nasty. Not unlike the rule never to mix 12 and 20 bore shotgun cartridges. It’s too easy to absently drop a 20 into a larger 12 breech, where it jams, then later think it’s empty and insert a 12 behind it. Goodbye hands and face.

SCM have quoted £700 for a 30mm spindle, spacers and nut. The T120 is also missing table inserts, pressures and extraction outlet.

£700 is a lot, but what is worth more is the fact that they have a helpful spares department.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby MJ80 » 31 May 2021, 23:23

Totally agree with the spares department. I have dealt with them in the past and also orderd parts to be shipped over here. The spares department here are not only more expensice but also very combatative and unhelpful to say the least.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 01 Jun 2021, 17:30

Apparently all the spares for the SCM T120C are obsolete.

Spoke to a very nice chap from the saw centre, Glasgow, an ex-machinery engineer. He looked at the listing for me - bargepoles were nicely mentioned, at that price - and pointed out the original paint around the SCM label that dates it to late 70s. Someone’s done it up in tasteful Makita blue.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 01 Jun 2021, 19:26

Guineafowl21 wrote:Apparently all the spares for the SCM T120C are obsolete.

Spoke to a very nice chap from the saw centre, Glasgow, an ex-machinery engineer. He looked at the listing for me - bargepoles were nicely mentioned, at that price - and pointed out the original paint around the SCM label that dates it to late 70s. Someone’s done it up in tasteful Makita blue.


Wot? A man that buys a 90-year-old surface planer is scared of a ~40-year-old spindle moulder? :lol:

I would assume whoever's sticker that is next to the SCM badge is the one who painted it, doesn't look a terrible job though.

Good, unmolested machines are harder to come by more and more, take Wadkin AGS saws for example, you used to be able to pick these up for around £300 no problem a couple of years ago and now even a ratty one will fetch £1000, and there are loads of refurbished ones about of varying quality which don't seem to fetch as much as one that's in original work clothes.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 01 Jun 2021, 19:38

Trevanion wrote:Wot? A man that buys a 90-year-old surface planer is scared of a ~40-year-old spindle moulder? :lol:


I do love old sh1te, but at the right price!

Missing bits - table inserts, extraction outlet, Shaw guards, 30mm spindle = not worth £2k plus VAT plus delivery, I would humbly say.

I offered £1k, but was turned down. I do see the machinery man’s point, that it might end up not being a bargain after all the bits are bought/found for it.

Eyes still peeled.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 01 Jun 2021, 20:10

Guineafowl21 wrote:Missing bits - table inserts, extraction outlet, Shaw guards, 30mm spindle = not worth £2k plus VAT plus delivery, I would humbly say.


Ah, I missed that you mentioned that those bits were missing.

Like I mentioned, worth keeping an eye out on the other industrial auction sites as you can pick up a bargain, but there does tend to be a bit more rigmarole when it comes to decommissioning the machines on site, having to have a written risk assessment on how you plan on moving the machine, and in some cases needing a qualified electrician to unwire it. You also need to keep in mind the auctioneers fees, which add a lot onto the final price.

Here's a couple of examples:

https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/ncm/catalogue-id-ncm-au10475/lot-de87ff38-c55d-4ed1-9c2e-ad36010cbaba

https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/eddisons/catalogue-id-eddiso11078/lot-1dcc9bfa-95c6-449f-8369-ad320105c694

https://www.cottandco.com/en/lots/martin-t26-tilting-spindle-moulder-2005-
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 01 Jun 2021, 20:49

Aha! Trying to get me to buy a Martin now, are we? :shock:

Still thinking about the T110 with the blurry pics. I bet I could do that up and shift it on.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 01 Jun 2021, 21:28

Guineafowl21 wrote:Aha! Trying to get me to buy a Martin now, are we? :shock:


Why settle for anything else? :D

Guineafowl21 wrote:Still thinking about the T110 with the blurry pics. I bet I could do that up and shift it on.


I personally don't think you can go far wrong with the price so long as it's complete, perhaps put in a cheeky offer over message for less as it's not sold for the starting bid at least once. It clearly needs a bit of TLC, the SCM decal/plate looks like it's beginning to peel away but this could probably be stuck back and the switchgear looks like it could do with some attention. I reckon it's just dirty more than anything and it's a lot of machine for the money, the Maggi Steff powerfeeder unit would fetch £150-200 by itself every day of the week.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 04 Jun 2021, 21:25

This is a nice machine with some very nice tooling (Zuani are practically the most expensive and highest quality you can buy if they are indeed Zuani), although I wouldn't want to go and collect it seeing where it is on the map :lol:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274814829917?hash=item3ffc3d855d%3Ag%3AtzMAAOSwXbhgskRn&LH_ItemCondition=3000
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 04 Jun 2021, 21:59

All that tooling, power feed and free delivery! Good deal.

The SCM 110 is on its way to me, or I might have gone for that.
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Trevanion » 05 Jun 2021, 00:04

Guineafowl21 wrote:All that tooling, power feed and free delivery! Good deal.

The SCM 110 is on its way to me, or I might have gone for that.


Why not both? :D
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Re: Spindle moulder shaft - 11/4 to 30mm?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 05 Jun 2021, 00:42

Trevanion wrote:
Guineafowl21 wrote:All that tooling, power feed and free delivery! Good deal.

The SCM 110 is on its way to me, or I might have gone for that.


Why not both? :D

Get thee behind me, beelzebub :twisted:
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