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German spindle moulder?

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German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 29 May 2021, 20:34

My wife's dad is aware I am looking for a spindle and has messaged me to say that he can get me a Kamro FM2 for nothing. It's in Germany, so post Covid I will need to hire a tail lift van and pick it up. It tis described as a wood milling machine, but seems in fact to be a spindle moulder.

This is not a brand I have heard of. The spindle is 30mm and there is some sort of top feed mechanism with three wheels that pulls wood through I think. There is a lot of tooling with it he says. He thinks it will work on UK power supply, but I am not sure at all.

Has anyone come across these? Google seems to suggest they are OK. If I say yes, (not sure that I have a real choice) it will be delivered to him next week and plonked in one of his garages ready for me to pick up, along with some other stuff that is coming out of a shop (his friend is retiring and his son does not wish to take over the business).

I suspect I will need to buy a pallet trolley jack to shift it.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Trevanion » 29 May 2021, 20:54

Can't say I've actually heard of them, but from googling it the machine does look familiar so maybe I've seen a couple for sale at some point, but then, they all do look the same :lol:

Looking from what I can find, it's going to have either a 5KW or 6.5KW motor driving the spindle, not a toy! The question is really whether you have the power to run such a monster, you'll either need three-phase on tap or a three-phase generator of some kind to run it.

Looks a nice machine though, German quality as per usual, particularly if it comes with the sliding table that you can see attached to quite a few of them. A big stack of tooling is a big bonus too. I don't think importing European machines is a big issue as power runs on 50hz both in Britain and the Continent, it would be an issue if it was from America as their power is 60hz and it would run about 17% slower here.

At around 800kg, you will definitely need a pallet truck. I would say go for it if it's free and you're heading over to Germany anyway. If nothing else it would fetch a decent amount of money over here in good nick.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 29 May 2021, 21:04

If not in Covid times we go to Germany a lot to visit in laws and my wife's friends and relations. So the trip is no big deal in due course. Three phase worries me though as that is not realistic unless I build a new workshop adjacent to the pole. I will ask FIL to check exactly what the power needs are from his mate. I have a heavy duty supply to my w/s but 240v only.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby 9fingers » 29 May 2021, 21:39

Don't be afraid of 3 phase. Inverters are very reliable and can give you variable speed and braking too.

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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 29 May 2021, 21:51

OK. He says it's 6Kw including a power feed. I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL. It weighs over 900kg including the extra bits apparently, and therefore I could not put it in my w/s as it has a step up and that is serious weight. Not sure if this is just too industrial for me as 6Kw is apparently over 8 horsepower, which sounds like way more than I need or dare handle. Will probably pass, sadly.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby 9fingers » 29 May 2021, 21:59

AJB Temple wrote:OK. He says it's 6Kw including a power feed. I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL. It weighs over 900kg including the extra bits apparently, and therefore I could not put it in my w/s as it has a step up and that is serious weight. Not sure if this is just too industrial for me as 6Kw is apparently over 8 horsepower, which sounds like way more than I need or dare handle. Will probably pass, sadly.


My Dad used to have a phrase " there is a difference between scratching your 4rse and tearing the skin off"

8hp is nearer the "tearing the skin off" for a hobby shop I reckon.

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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Trevanion » 29 May 2021, 22:12

AJB Temple wrote:I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL.


He might struggle to understand the issue as I think practically all homes in Germany have 440V three-phase power coming into them, it wouldn't be an issue for most people there to buy that and run it with no problems.

The British government really should have some kind of three-phase rollout scheme to help small businesses as having to pay £40,000+ in most cases to have it installed is absolutely absurd.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby droogs » 29 May 2021, 23:11

Adrian ask your FIL if the machine is dreiphasenweschelstrom. He should understand that as german houses are all supplied with a 3 phase feed as well as 1 phase
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 29 May 2021, 23:23

Thanks. Will establish the facts tomorrow, but I am pretty sure this is way OTT for me.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2021, 07:12

AJB Temple wrote:....but I am pretty sure this is way OTT for me.


Don't underestimate yourself, Adrian. Plenty of help here on the forum.

As Bob says..an inverter will give you three-phase but you might need to mess around with the motors converting them to star or delta (I can never remember which). Plus you have to bring the controls on the machine out to control the inverter. TBH it is a real PITA and I had to give up that approach with my combi. Instead I got a Transwave rotary converter. My preferred KISS approach. Just get your sparky to run in a good feed on a separate circuit with appropriate breakers and jobs a good'un.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 30 May 2021, 11:59

Trevanion wrote:
AJB Temple wrote:I'm struggling to explain 3 phase vs single phase to my FIL.


He might struggle to understand the issue as I think practically all homes in Germany have 440V three-phase power coming into them, it wouldn't be an issue for most people there to buy that and run it with no problems.

The British government really should have some kind of three-phase rollout scheme to help small businesses as having to pay £40,000+ in most cases to have it installed is absolutely absurd.

We dropped the ball a little there - with heat pumps and car charging points coming in, three phase would have been a very handy standard for domestic supplies. Even 230V 3ph is far more efficient.

AJB, do you have any pictures of it? :)
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby clogs » 30 May 2021, 13:03

AJB,
just go for it.....you cant loose.....
just wish I had the oppertunity.....
sadly still missing my Wadkin EQ.......
A used the power feeder would fetch at least £200 on it's own......
Provide FIL has a proper drive borrow an engine lift/crane to get it in the back and just use a norm Transit...no real need for a tail lift..make sure you tie it down tho....proper ratchet straps....
IT wont be hard to get it out with a few friends...doing it in reverse.....
hopefully your garden path or what ever is smooth......
Pallet truck can be rented really cheaply but only good on the smooth stuff but of course a couple of 3/4 sheets of ply would make life easier........
good luck......
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 30 May 2021, 13:57

I've passed. It could turn into a money pit and my workshop is not easy to get heavy machines into as it is at the end of the garden. Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) and collecting it from Koln (van hire is not cheap for going abroad), and getting a new supply wired in, works out too much given the risk it may be unsuitable. I need a sensible machine for personal use. FIL gets this.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2021, 14:12

AJB Temple wrote:..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....


Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 30 May 2021, 14:22

AJB Temple wrote:I've passed. It could turn into a money pit and my workshop is not easy to get heavy machines into as it is at the end of the garden. Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) and collecting it from Koln (van hire is not cheap for going abroad), and getting a new supply wired in, works out too much given the risk it may be unsuitable. I need a sensible machine for personal use. FIL gets this.

I might be interested in it - would you mind PM-ing the collection postcode (or equivalent)? I’ll have to guess the dimensions.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Trevanion » 30 May 2021, 15:22

RogerS wrote:
AJB Temple wrote:..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....


Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !


I don’t think an 8HP three-phase motor will run on a single-phase supply effectively, no matter what black magic you try!
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2021, 16:45

Trevanion wrote:
RogerS wrote:
AJB Temple wrote:..... Converting from 3 phase (I know nothing about this) .....


Adrian, can you wire a plug ? If so then that's the only skill you need !


I don’t think an 8HP three-phase motor will run on a single-phase supply effectively, no matter what black magic you try!


Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

transwave.png
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 30 May 2021, 17:42

That is some lump of a spindle moulder:

https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pd ... df?lang=en

A full tonne with the sliding table.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Trevanion » 30 May 2021, 18:01

RogerS wrote:
Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

transwave.png


Do you yourself have experience trying to run high-powered three-phase motors (over 4KW) off a domestic single-phase supply?
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby RogerS » 30 May 2021, 18:28

Trevanion wrote:
RogerS wrote:
Transwave would beg to differ, Dan !

transwave.png


Do you yourself have experience trying to run high-powered three-phase motors (over 4KW) off a domestic single-phase supply?


Yes. It's not rocket-science. I refer you back to the Transwave chart. They are a reputable company. I agree that as you start to get towards the higher size that the 240v supply needs special attention!
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Trevanion » 30 May 2021, 19:17

RogerS wrote:Yes. It's not rocket-science. I refer you back to the Transwave chart. They are a reputable company. I agree that as you start to get towards the higher size that the 240v supply needs special attention!


Perhaps they’ve come on a long way since the last time I used machinery running on a Transwave, but I found even within spec and wired properly that the machine (A Multico Tenoner with two 2.2kw motors to be precise) was gutless compared to one that was running on true three-phase.

I don’t think Adrian will have the power to run the moulder, the power feed, an extractor (say 8HP, 1HP, and 2HP respectively) and still have enough power for the lights and whatever’s going on in the house unless he has an unusually powerful supply.
Last edited by Trevanion on 30 May 2021, 21:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby AJB Temple » 30 May 2021, 20:44

Trevanion is spot on, and the was my conclusion exactly. Realism has to prevail here; I have a heavy duty supply but not one on an industrial scale.

This was a deal available through family contacts. Sorry - it is not available to others. Nor am I interested in making money from it - FIL finds all kinds of things for us, but I respect his approach to it and will not abuse it.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Guineafowl21 » 30 May 2021, 21:57

AJB Temple wrote:Trevanion is spot on, and the was my conclusion exactly. Realism has to prevail here; I have a heavy duty supply but not one on an industrial scale.

This was a deal available through family contacts. Sorry - it is not available to others. Nor am I interested in making money from it - FIL finds all kinds of things for us, but I respect his approach to it and will not abuse it.

Fair enough. It was a bit speculative on my part, anyway.

Have a look at my thread on here (11/4” spindle to 30mm), which was an engineering question that has turned into a hunt for a big spindle moulder.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby Vann » 31 May 2021, 01:55

AJB Temple wrote:I've passed...

Well fellow enablers, we have failed in our quest to push Mr Temple over the edge and down the slippery slope.

Mark: F = fail.

Cheers, Vann.
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Re: German spindle moulder?

Postby MJ80 » 31 May 2021, 07:59

I've missed this over the weekend.
There are plenty of good machines on offer over here for a reasonable price. The Kolle are good machines and the sliding table setup is quite common here. Often they are available with a cut off saw as well for tennis, but the guarding for this isn't up to current standards.
All houses pretty much have Starkstrom (3phase), single phase is called Wechselstrom. Out consumer unit has a clever buzzbar so each neighbouring rcd runs on a different phase. Each room is on its own 16a radial for the sockets and lights. It's pretty bonkers and all the major appliances have individual rcds, rather than isolators as in the UK. The voltage difference between the UK and Germany is negligible. A friend who is an electrican explained it's all the same voltage, they have tried to harmonise the number standard through the Eu. I have a couple of machines from the UK and they run fine. The old german standard was 380v I believe.
Currently I have a Baüerle SFM machine from the 1980's without the sliding table setup and it's a great machine. Simple, a breeze to setup, reverse option, multiple speeds off the switch both ways. Similar to a Wadkin BEM. I do have a Festo (pre portable Festool) tenoner that I need to get up and running, it's like a giant version of a Sedgwick. Has some odd looking discs I'm not to keen on.
So there are good value machines here if you look hard enough, transport back to the UK and taxes post brexit I have no idea on. Pallets shipping is expensive here, but there are more online booking options so the price has dropped somewhat. Prices are on the up at the moment, houses are much bigger and people have the space for workshops at home, bandsaws in particular have gone through the roof. Corona has definitely made more people set up the home workshop. Hopefully it will come down over time.
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