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Scheppach Basato 4

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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby TomTrees » 10 Jul 2021, 13:19

I think it is relevant for someone who dosen't want to get on a saw horse to change blades, or one who want's something else than the wee one.

Not sure if Scheppach are still making saws, if so seems its still the same Basato.
Most of the Far Eastern machines made today, or which have been for at least over the last decade have much better components.
That's where I was coming from.

Most brands still cheap out on the tension screw, substituted for some bells and whistles,
like quick change blade lever, which on a big thread is likely equally fast/easy.
My Centaurolized saw makes that a breeze.
I have little want for anything but what I need.


In the used market that comparison means little though, unless you need to have some sticker for H&S.

You don't seem too keen on the Centauro !
I'm guessing you have something heavier, to not think highly of the machine, either that, or not used an Italian saw or Wadkin with flat tires.

Somethings amiss here, as you have likely used as many machines as I've had hot dinners.
I well remember ..."the most expensive planer restoration in the world"
So you're not beyond a bit o fixin up.

I'd have thought you would appreciate that these will run with only a single thrust guide, which with flat tires is much much easier on them, and is maintenance free too, maybe not for yourself, but the average Joe Soap it is, never put any oil, nor cleaned on the one I have.
That combined with the less noise factor is why I think its a good machine.

Yes likely could be got for maybe a bit cheaper, I got an ACM made Griggio for 500 (euro's)
without a fence.
Turned out, along with the new Far Eastern machine, was also a lemon.
Being broke makes it easy to find those "too good to be true" bargains.

So yes might be a good idea to look for something a bit more cared for, instead of something fruity, but does anyone have the choice?

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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby TomTrees » 10 Jul 2021, 16:59

TomTrees wrote:Most of the Far Eastern machines made today, or which have been for at least over the last decade have much better components.

(Bar guides if made of some strange alloy castings)
as there's still some companies out there making pot metal components. :eusa-violin:
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Trevanion » 10 Jul 2021, 23:46

TomTrees wrote:I think it is relevant for someone who dosen't want to get on a saw horse to change blades, or one who want's something else than the wee one.


I'm not sure how that's relevant to what that discussion was about either? Are you talking in parables and I'm just not getting it? :eusa-think:

TomTrees wrote:Not sure if Scheppach are still making saws, if so seems its still the same Basato.


Scheppach still make saws, the Basatos are now called Basa's and look pretty much the same as they did 25 years ago except in blue rather than tan. If it's still built the same as it was back then I would imagine the Basa 3 for just under £500 is a lot of saw for the money, you can spend £1000 on Felder's bottom line Hammer saw and that doesn't even include the stand, shockingly!

I wouldn't still have it if it was rubbish, let me put it to you like that, and I don't treat them gently either.

TomTrees wrote:You don't seem too keen on the Centauro !
I'm guessing you have something heavier, to not think highly of the machine, either that, or not used an Italian saw or Wadkin with flat tires.

Somethings amiss here, as you have likely used as many machines as I've had hot dinners.
I well remember ..."the most expensive planer restoration in the world"
So you're not beyond a bit o fixin up.


I'm not saying anything negative about Centauro's saws, I'm saying that Centauro/Startrite, in particular, isn't worth the time of day trying to sort out. If it was a bargain it would've been snatched up by now but it's been on there for about four months, as I said, it's £300 too much.

I had the good fortune to have used a variety of bandsaws, from British to German, Italian, Chinese, and everything in between, with prices from fifty pounds worth, up to tens of thousands of pounds worth. If someone asked me what the best bandsaw I've used was that would be a difficult question as they're practically all the same, a number of wheels with a blade that goes around them, you really can't get a much simpler machine and the only real difference between them is the size and build quality which really is of little consequence so long as it cuts timber straight and proper. If I had to be pushed on the question I would probably have to say a Lurem SAR would be the best I've used, French-made, as simple in construction as a pair of wellington boots much like the Startrite saws but with a very interesting design that the body of the saw tilts rather than the table when you want to cut angles. If I had to have one bandsaw in the workshop that would be the one I would choose over anything else (except maybe it's heavier duty cousin, the Wadkin MZ but I haven't used one of those).

A big bandsaw is nice and all but for at least 95% of bandsaw work you simply don't need the size of anything over a 350mm wheel machine, a larger machine just eats up an unnecessarily large amount of room and generally costs more to run unless you can justify needing it for that 5% of work, comparing a Startrite 352 and a Felder FB510 the Felder probably eats a half square metre more than the Startrite does, which is precious space in the home workshop unless you have an aircraft hangar to play in.

No, I'm not afraid to fix a machine up, but I spend every working day working with wood, looking at wood, living with wood... you get the idea, so I enjoy spending my spare time dealing with something that isn't wood, which is fixing up old machinery/engineering. I imagine someone like Mike would prefer a machine to be working with minimal effort so they can get right to working wood with it, rather than spend weeks fixing it up so they can eventually use it, plus the fact it's a totally different skill-set and most people find that daunting. I'm sorting out a spindle moulder in my spare time at the moment, I'm well over a hundred hours invested into it now and I'm nowhere near finished although it is work to a fairly highish standard. If your goal is to work with wood rather than fix up machines it doesn't really make sense to fix them up, you may as well pay the extra for a straight machine if your time is worth more to you than the saving.

TomTrees wrote:That combined with the less noise factor is why I think its a good machine.


My Basato 3 runs like a sewing machine now that I changed the wheel bearings, it's actually probably the quietest one I've used, cutting is noisy but no more than any other machine.

TomTrees wrote:So yes might be a good idea to look for something a bit more cared for, instead of something fruity, but does anyone have the choice?


Of course you do, if your time is precious to you (and it should be, it's the most finite thing you have) and you do not get any enjoyment out of fixing up machinery, you spend more and either buy new, refurbished, or something in good nick, not something that's clearly been run for thousands of hours cutting cast aluminium in harsh conditions, with missing parts, and will require a lot of effort to make suitable for cutting timber.
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby TomTrees » 11 Jul 2021, 01:39

I was merely assuming that Centauro were making huge super industrial plant machinery saws, and the wee one which is now not the Minimax/S45N or whatever its called.

Aah, a rather good call on what would be a sensible option if wanting every inch of room.
I have to say the FB or something similar like ACM , Multico or Wadkin or whatever else might be a good call, if one happened to stumble across this well sought after size.

I have to say, I've never came across an Italian 500mm saw, they seem a bit bigger than the
Far Eastern 20" I had, which took up no more space than the EB315 in there now.

Noise whilst cutting is what I was getting at, I can use a well tensioned 3/4" blade on my machine and cut some dimensioned fairly thick stock without using the thrust guide.
Maybe I should be swapping my blade for say above 4", but the 3TPI blade seems great for most of the things I need it for.
If I were ever to want to tackle green oak I'd want an inch blade with fewer teeth.

Sounds like the decent machines you mention didn't get the full Trevanion make over to me.

Re the Centauro, I reckon it would be easy to knock up a fence for it, as the well designed square rail is still present, which is an easy 'drop on' type, look at six minutes into this video for some inspiration... "Keile, Kreise, Kopieren mit der Bandsäge!"
This seems to be quite a common occurrence on a 24" saw, so can be often be got for a song.
Bit big for some though, especially compared to some of the 20" far Eastern machines which you don't see very often.

I just see the small ones as endless tinkering, so the time spent refurbishing a good one is time well spent.

All the best
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Trevanion » 11 Jul 2021, 09:26

TomTrees wrote:I was merely assuming that Centauro were making huge super industrial plant machinery saws, and the wee one which is now not the Minimax/S45N or whatever its called.


As I said in a couple of posts up, Centauro have just brought out a new line of saws branded "Smart" which are a much lower price and more compact compared to their industrial CO saws

~£2000 inc VAT Smart 400
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~£4000 inc VAT CO400
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Centauro does 500mm saws in both brands as well.

TomTrees wrote:Sounds like the decent machines you mention didn't get the full Trevanion make over to me.


Most of the people I've worked for wanted you to work wood, not work on machines unless it was absolutely necessary. When you did work on the machinery, it was typically because something had broken and so it needed to be fixed as soon as possible, and more often than not it would've been some really sketchy repair done in-house without any proper equipment "just to keep it going" but then this repair ends up being permanent, which is why I would recommend avoiding machines that have clearly been neglected and worked hard unless you have the aptitude to repair them from the outset.
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby TomTrees » 11 Jul 2021, 18:59

Good to hear that those are new machines, I thought those CO's were old stock, be interesting to see what factory they came from, to try and make sense of why these aren't being exported to USA.

Maybe all that's about to change?

Good news for the not so afraid of a bit o elbow grease.
Cheers

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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Bojam » 25 Sep 2021, 03:58

Trevanion wrote:As I said in a couple of posts up, Centauro have just brought out a new line of saws branded "Smart" which are a much lower price and more compact compared to their industrial CO saws

~£2000 inc VAT Smart 400
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Hi Trevanion

I spotted the Centauro Smart range on Scott and Sargeants website a few days ago. The spec of the Smart 400 is decent, comparable to similar saws in that price range. But I was surprised to see that the motor is rated at only 1hp (~0.75kw). This seems underpowered, especially since the comparable competition usually have at least 2hp (1.5kw) motors.

What's your take on that I wonder? With a listed max cutting height of 300mm, would the small motor cause problems for resawing close to capacity? Or are there other important factors, along with the power of the motor, that need to be considered? Can the relative lack of power be compensated for by other build elements allowing equivalent performance to similar sized machines with more powerful motors?

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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Mike G » 25 Sep 2021, 09:09

Welcome, Bojam.

My take on that is that the highest priority for a bandsaw is a really stiff frame so that blades can be tensioned properly, and so that tables locate firmly. Power is secondary, but important. If it has lower power, then a lower gearing, and thus a lower band speed, would probably overcome most of the issues in thicker material. As always with bandsaws, a sharp blade and a lower feed-in speed will get you over 99% of the issues.
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Trevanion » 25 Sep 2021, 12:31

Bojam wrote:Hi Trevanion

I spotted the Centauro Smart range on Scott and Sargeants website a few days ago. The spec of the Smart 400 is decent, comparable to similar saws in that price range. But I was surprised to see that the motor is rated at only 1hp (~0.75kw). This seems underpowered, especially since the comparable competition usually have at least 2hp (1.5kw) motors.

What's your take on that I wonder? With a listed max cutting height of 300mm, would the small motor cause problems for resawing close to capacity? Or are there other important factors, along with the power of the motor, that need to be considered? Can the relative lack of power be compensated for by other build elements allowing equivalent performance to similar sized machines with more powerful motors?

James


Hello James, Welcome to the Woodhaven!

I would tend to agree that one horsepower seems a little on the underwhelming side for a 400mm wheel machine, but I would expect that Centauro have worked it all out and the machine will perform to within it's capabilities. The Startrite 352 had a one horsepower motor with quite lightweight 350mm wheels and it was plenty powerful enough to rip full capacity (250mm) with the correct blade, so I would assume the SMART 400 with it's "high-intertia" wheels should be able to keep up just the same.

Their CO range of bandsaws also has a 400mm varient which is more than twice the price of the SMART bandsaw, of course, this bandsaw is made much more sturdier and has many higher quality components than the SMART saws as well as a two horsepower motor, but again, it's twice the price of not only the SMART but many other manufacturer's saws in the same size category. Looking at old literature from the 70s, the old Startrite CO450 (which was the Centauro imported into Britain by Startrite) only boasted a 1.5hp motor.

I recently sold a Charnwood W730 (350mm wheels) that I bought as part of a job lot years ago that had a one and a half horsepower motor so in theory it should've been more powerful than the Startrite 352 on paper but it didn't even come close even with a sharp blade, so I would think motor quality makes a large difference as the Charnwood had a really cheap and nasty Chinese motor on it while the Startrite has a British Brook motor. So possibly Centauro are using a decent quality Italian motor rather than far eastern junk that many others are using, but that's purely speculation and you'd have to have confirmation from someone who's seen one of these machines in person.
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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Bojam » 29 Sep 2021, 18:20

Hi Mike, Trevanion

Thanks very much for the warm welcome and the detailed answers to my questions.

Sorry for the delayed response. I did try to reply earlier but my post was "disapproved" by a moderator. Strange as I was just saying that had I been aware of the Centauro Smart range then I might well have bought one. Instead, I choose to buy a bandsaw and planer-thicknesser from a French/European company who sell machines manufactured in the Far East (similar specs and probably very similar in build quality to the equivalent Record and iTech machines). I looked at the budget SCM range and the Felder Hammer range but couldn't justify the substantial additional expense.

I wasn't able to consider second hand machines as there is virtually no market here in French Guiana and obviously I couldn't visit used machines in Europe to assess their condition. So it had to be new. And on top of that I had to contend with rising prices, particularly in shipping rates. So buying machines that reviewed well on French woodworking forums, from a French company with excellent customer service and reasonable pricing seemed like the sensible way to go. Having a 3 year warranty and the promise of solid after-sales support also tipped the balance. The specs of the machines look good (helical head on the 310mm PT, solid cast iron tables, 3hp motor, weighing 210kg; 17in heavy-duty flywheels on the bandsaw, 300mm max resaw capacity, 2hp motor, weighing 160kg). Hope I won't be disappointed. Delivery expected within the next month (at last!).

I understand the common advice to find (older) European manufactured machines and avoid the new stuff coming out of the Far East. But I do think we need to be a little careful not to treat all Far Eastern machinery as equivalent. For instance the Laguna range of bandsaws are multi award winning and very popular in the States, but produced in Taiwan. The JET JPT range of PTs has also been very popular and have received overwhelmingly positive reviews. Clearly some of the more expensive stuff, carefully designed and properly quality controlled can be excellent - particulary for small artisanal workshops. I hope the machines I chose turn out to be well engineered, robust and reliable too.

Cheers

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Re: Scheppach Basato 4

Postby Trevanion » 30 Sep 2021, 22:38

Bojam wrote:I wasn't able to consider second hand machines as there is virtually no market here in French Guiana and obviously I couldn't visit used machines in Europe to assess their condition.


Ah, and I complain about machines being too far away... :lol:

If the machines you're having are the same/similar to the iTech machines I don't think you'll be too disappointed, they're built to a price but purportedly they work quite well. My only experience with iTech machinery was with a power feeder unit for a spindle moulder, and I found it a much nicer to use and better-finished piece of equipment compared to the Italian Maggi Steff power feeders.

Bojam wrote:I understand the common advice to find (older) European manufactured machines and avoid the new stuff coming out of the Far East. But I do think we need to be a little careful not to treat all Far Eastern machinery as equivalent. For instance the Laguna range of bandsaws are multi award winning and very popular in the States, but produced in Taiwan. The JET JPT range of PTs has also been very popular and have received overwhelmingly positive reviews. Clearly some of the more expensive stuff, carefully designed and properly quality controlled can be excellent - particulary for small artisanal workshops. I hope the machines I chose turn out to be well engineered, robust and reliable too.


I think Laguna is a cut above the rest as they actually manufacture their own machines in their own factory with their own design, tooling, and quality control in Taiwan, whereas a lot of others simply buy in generic machines but with their branding on with perhaps a bit of a different specification between manufacturers, but they're the same machine at their core. Another popular and well-regarded far-eastern machine are the Harvey table saws, which are made to quite a high standard compared to other similar machines, so not all the stuff coming from the Far East is total carp, it's all to do with the build quality and the quality control.
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