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CNC Router! (Drawing Ukulele Components)

Here's the place to talk about all your table saws, bandsaws, routers and dust extractors. In fact anything that makes noise and uses electrickery.

Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 23 May 2022, 20:41

Right! Now I've got it working and can practice with the Cad/Cam software, I also need to rip some stock and the machine is sitting on my table saw.

My shop is not big, 5.5 x 3.5m outside measurements, and I've got no floor space for a bench exclusive for the CNC Router. So, I've weighed it both ends with the bathroom scales and both readings are within 0.1kg of 25 kg, so I'm presuming around and at least 50kg AUW.

I've been thinking about a garage storage lift and came up with this.
https://www.thule.com/en-gb/cargo-carrier/car-top-carrier-accessories/thule-multilift-_-572004
578297.jpg
(54.31 KiB)


Its spec came up with up to 100kgs. The instructions talk of 1/4" lag screws into the rafters.

These are mine.
A1D7F1A9-40A8-41ED-AEE1-84F35AA74409.jpeg
(373.62 KiB)

The ceiling is 11mm OSB, so I can find the rafters if I have to.

What do you guys think about hoisting 50kg via four pulleys, each fixed to the tie bar timbers by two lag screws?

I will, of course, be making a flat bed for the machine to sit on and it will be that bed that the ropes will be connected to.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Cncpaul » 23 May 2022, 21:42

I have the Thule lift it’s ok for a roof box but l wouldn’t be keen on hanging the cnc from it.
Would it being hinged from the wall be a better option ?
Last edited by Cncpaul on 23 May 2022, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 23 May 2022, 21:45

Cncpaul wrote:Would hinged from the wall be a better option ?


I have looked at those designs, especially the one that closes like DG window hinges, But I would have to lose so much storage space, racks, shelves etc from my walls, with nowhere else to move them to. As I said, my space is not big.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby droogs » 23 May 2022, 21:47

What about a tablesaw/router bed flip top stand on a slowmo motor connected to a PA that plays Thunderbirds each time you change use? That's what I'd do, honestly :lol:

If you can't be bothered then provided your rafters are big enough go with the pulleys
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 23 May 2022, 22:16

droogs wrote:What about a tablesaw/router bed flip top stand on a slowmo motor connected to a PA that plays Thunderbirds each time you change use? That's what I'd do, honestly :lol:

If you can't be bothered then provided your rafters are big enough go with the pulleys


:lol:

I'm thinking of bolts rather than lag screws through the ties, or through a couple of 4x2s bolted across the top of the ties, so as to spread the load across all three.

As an aside, back in the very early 70s, Century 21 studios had a place on my patch where they did the special effects. I had to renew their explosives licence.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Cabinetman » 23 May 2022, 22:32

I like that lifter, I could not have found a good use for that a few years ago, the lag screws or coach screws as I’ve always called them will take that weight with no problem, presuming 1/4” is the shank size. 2” long into a correctly drilled hole will take huge loads and you will be using 8 of them so looks good to me. Ian
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby sunnybob » 24 May 2022, 05:13

Weight distribution is the key here.
50kg on 4 pulleys is 12.5 kg per pulley. if each pully is fixed by 2 bolts, then each bolt is holding 6.25 kg. Weight therefore is not an issue.
But I would be unhappy using rope or cord, purely because that situation could easily result in the load being held for a very long time, and the rope or cord might deteriorate and weaken if under constant stress. And there could always be an insect or mouse come along and chew through it, resulting in catastrophic failure (with apologies to will willis :eusa-whistle: )

I would use steel cable. It would be very thin and pliable and vermin proof.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2022, 11:13

Thanks, Gents.

Ian,

It's reassuring to know I'm on the right lines, assuming my tie beams can take the weight, too.

Bob,

Even more reassuring I'm on the right lines, assuming the tie beams can take the weight, too. I was also coming round to thinking of steel cable. I would suppose galvanised would be adequate, and stainless overkill for indoors. I'm not sure if nylon coated, like they use in gyms, not that I frequent any :) , would be OK going through the pulleys and around the coil wheels on the drive rod. Also, I'd have to think of what size of wire rope; the link to this suppliers state the 3-4mm has a breaking load a of 588kgs. I suppose that would do. ;)

https://www.wireropeshop.co.uk/nylon-11-steel-wire-gym-cable-clear/
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Andyp » 24 May 2022, 11:55

Once you have it hoisted what will the clearance underneath be? How tall are you? Will moving stuff around the workshop be a problem?
I’ve not a better solution other than a workshop extension.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2022, 12:14

I have a small (5' x3') road trailer stowed in my garage roof hauled up by winch and rope but once in position, the weight is taken by short chains and the tension taken off the rope.
Something similar as a safety measure might be appropriate here too?

Bob
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2022, 13:28

Andyp wrote:Once you have it hoisted what will the clearance underneath be? How tall are you? Will moving stuff around the workshop be a problem?
I’ve not a better solution other than a workshop extension.


Je suis un petit cul :D I'm not sure how well that translates. :D
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2022, 13:31

9fingers wrote:I have a small (5' x3') road trailer stowed in my garage roof hauled up by winch and rope but once in position, the weight is taken by short chains and the tension taken off the rope.
Something similar as a safety measure might be appropriate here too?

Bob


I was also coming to a similar thought, Bob. Certainly if I was only using rope. Even with steel rope, belt and braces is never a bad thing.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby 9fingers » 24 May 2022, 13:40

Just occurred to me that if you had an inverted box structure on the ceiling that you winched the cnc on it's table up into to form a sealed box, it would keep it virtually dust free.

Toggle clamps around the box would both keep it shut and take the weight off the ropes as well as dealing with any chance of rodent issues.

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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2022, 13:51

9fingers wrote:Just occurred to me that if you had an inverted box structure on the ceiling that you winched the cnc on it's table up into to form a sealed box, it would keep it virtually dust free.

Toggle clamps around the box would both keep it shut and take the weight off the ropes as well as dealing with any chance of rodent issues.

Bob


I like the idea, but I think there isn't the amount of space to achieve that, and it's adding weight to the tie beams. I've got to move lighting panels and electrical trunking, as it is. I'll look into it.
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby sunnybob » 24 May 2022, 14:54

Youre over estimating weight problems. Again, 50kgs (assume 60 including the actual pulleys and ropes) across two beams. 30 kgs per beam. If you were fit and able, would you be prepared to chin yourself up on each beam? Thats about a 100 kgs per beam.

I would not use galvanised wire, galvanising is a very thin top coat over iron. A few lifts and lowers over steel pulleys could easily crack the galvanising, leading to early onset rust in shed conditions.
Very thin stainless cable, and ALL of your maintenance goes away for the rest of your life. :D 8-)
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Re: CNC Router! (Stowage?!)

Postby Malc2098 » 24 May 2022, 15:38

sunnybob wrote:Youre over estimating weight problems. Again, 50kgs (assume 60 including the actual pulleys and ropes) across two beams. 30 kgs per beam. If you were fit and able, would you be prepared to chin yourself up on each beam? Thats about a 100 kgs per beam.

I would not use galvanised wire, galvanising is a very thin top coat over iron. A few lifts and lowers over steel pulleys could easily crack the galvanising, leading to early onset rust in shed conditions.
Very thin stainless cable, and ALL of your maintenance goes away for the rest of your life. :D 8-)



Thanks, Bob. That's reassuring. Stainless it is.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2022, 13:04

No photos to show, just to post that with the help of the Australian guys,

https://www.cnc3d.com.au/

I can now control the machine from my laptop by bluetooth which means I haven't got the usb cable traipsing across the workshop.

In addition, they say that the bluetooth connection is more stable because it's not susceptible to EMI interference.

Currently machining a collet and cutter holder.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby 9fingers » 31 May 2022, 13:47

Malc2098 wrote:
In addition, they say that the bluetooth connection is more stable because it's not susceptible to EMI interference.



That statement stretches their credibility somewhat. A wireless link almost never offers greater EMI resistant than a directly connected cable.
As you know from your Wifi experience in the workshop, EMI from your lights caused lots of issues.

Certainly reducing/removing cables draped across the shop is highly desirable so that is a positive.

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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2022, 14:03

9fingers wrote:
Malc2098 wrote:
In addition, they say that the bluetooth connection is more stable because it's not susceptible to EMI interference.



That statement stretches their credibility somewhat. A wireless link almost never offers greater EMI resistance than a directly connected cable.
As you know from your Wifi experience in the workshop, EMI from your lights caused lots of issues.

Certainly reducing/removing cables draped across the shop is highly desirable so that is a positive.

Bob



I don't know enough to challenge them, Bob. All I know is they make, sell and export their machines and controllers and work through connections problems in their workshops, and with their help I've managed to eliminate them problems that were preventing me from making the machine work.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2022, 20:57

I just routed the collet and cutter rack over bluetooth.

47444CB3-5201-4F86-B65E-4DE2A071C107.jpeg
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A49F17EF-2B0D-4410-A149-8E5CE0ED0666.jpeg
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Andyp » 31 May 2022, 21:01

How long did that take Malc?
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2022, 21:18

Andyp wrote:How long did that take Malc?


I used it as an exercise. I did the drawing and tool path calculations last night and about an hour.

I did the pockets in batches, so as to allow the spindle to cool down between batches.

I also experimented with feed rates (how fast the spindle moves laterally in mm per min) and pass depths ( the depth of cut per pass). I'm advised no more than half the diameter of the cutter deep. So with a 6mm up cutter, the depth of cut started at 1.5 and I added .5mm at a time till the last batch was 3mm at 1100 mm pm @ 19000 rpm.

That resulted in each of the smaller pockets on the right taking about 45 seconds. So the cutter pockets if done all at that same speed would have taken between 20 and 25 minutes. But, like I said, I do it in batches to let the spindle cool down.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby RogerS » 31 May 2022, 21:38

Andyp wrote:How long did that take Malc?


Six months to build the machine. Five more to get it working. Four hours on the computer writing the instructions. 30 seconds making it. :eusa-whistle:

Sorry, Malc...couldn't resist. I'm seriously impressed with what you've done.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby Malc2098 » 31 May 2022, 22:33

RogerS wrote:
Andyp wrote:How long did that take Malc?


Six months to build the machine. Five more to get it working. Four hours on the computer writing the instructions. 30 seconds making it. :eusa-whistle:

Sorry, Malc...couldn't resist. I'm seriously impressed with what you've done.



:lol:

Thanks, Roger. Next challenge is to hoist in to the ceiling so I can access my table saw.

But all the time, I'm learning the complexities of the drawing Cad/Cam software.
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Re: CNC Router! (Now Bluetooth Controlled!)

Postby DaveL » 01 Jun 2022, 19:49

Hi Malc,

Here is my collet storage, I like having a lid to stop the dust collecting on it.Image
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