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Favourite cross-line laser levels?

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Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Eric the Viking » 07 Jun 2022, 10:00

Any favourites and/or ones you especially hate?

I've had a red one for many years, but it's really simple in construction and a nuisance to use as it's bulky and dim and only a single axis. A cross-line one would be really handy right now.

I was impressed by the Kapro ones, however it looks like their main site has been hacked, and the one I was particularly after seems to be no longer made (873G). One of the features they claim is 0.2mm/m accuracy, which is useful. Some of the others are pretty poor in that regard.

Use: mostly indoors, but I am rather keen on a ceiling line, so as to set out light fittings, etc. I've modded the old one to do this but it's really awkward, and one that works from floor level would be great...

Bosch ones seem to be liked, but they are premium priced. I don't mind if they're worth it, but I am not paying for the Bosch name alone!

Please dive in...

E.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Cabinetman » 07 Jun 2022, 11:04

My only experience was with a Bosch one of my sons, basic but most impressive. Ian
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Eric the Viking » 07 Jun 2022, 11:13

Thanks - confirms what I was thinking. I'm leaning(!) towards the GLL 2-15G presently, as it looks pretty robust.
Image

My ancient Black & Decker one got knocked off-true when it was loaned-out some years ago, and though it's (unofficially) adjustable, I've never managed to realign it successfully (it really needs the factory jig, wot I don't have). and it's a silly design anyway:
Image

Found the image on Amazon - couldn't believe B+D are still selling it!
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Eric the Viking » 07 Jun 2022, 12:56

Pulled the trigger on an open-box Bosch one from Amazon (as above - saved a few quid that way).
Should do me fine I expect.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Lurker » 07 Jun 2022, 18:26

Let us know what you think of it after you have had a fiddle.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby 9fingers » 11 Jun 2022, 21:52

Came across this video with comments on a low cost laser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMhvfdEgco

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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby AJB Temple » 12 Jun 2022, 07:27

Good video.

I actually sold my De Walt lasers and replaced with Huespar green lasers. They are brilliant - you can't fault them for the money: mine does 360degree lines in three switchable planes, and has a laser lock (it blinks now and again so you don't forget the self levelling is locked off) and is perfect for setting out things like floor tiles or ceiling lights or shelves. The only thing with these tools is that they go through (AA) batteries quite quickly, but that is peanuts compared with the saving on Bosche, De Walt or Hilti tools. They are not as robustly made as a DeWalt say, and so I would not buy one for day in day out site use, but for DIY they are amazingly good.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby RogerS » 03 Sep 2022, 09:54

AJB Temple wrote:Good video.

I actually sold my De Walt lasers and replaced with Huespar green lasers. They are brilliant - you can't fault them for the money: mine does 360degree lines in three switchable planes, and has a laser lock (it blinks now and again so you don't forget the self levelling is locked off) and is perfect for setting out things like floor tiles or ceiling lights or shelves. The only thing with these tools is that they go through (AA) batteries quite quickly, but that is peanuts compared with the saving on Bosche, De Walt or Hilti tools. They are not as robustly made as a DeWalt say, and so I would not buy one for day in day out site use, but for DIY they are amazingly good.


I bought that Huespar model that you suggested, Adrian. It is 100% useless outside. You have to lash out more money to get their receiver. The self-levelling takes forever which rules it out for many tasks. So I'm in two minds about sending it back TBH.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Eric the Viking » 04 Sep 2022, 10:42

I owe the team a review of the Bosch one I bought:

It's a green, GLL 2-15-G, which in future I shall simply call "Norman" (Bosch evidently haven't got the hang of product naming).

Caveat: I've only really used it indoors, in a very confined space. That said, it did what I needed, pretty much.

I paid £134 as an Amazon Warehouse deal, and I am not sure it was a bargain, even though it was about £40 off the then list price.

"Scope of delivery" (wot???)

It comes in a cardboard box, with a rather absurd carrying pouch inside (with a belt loop - really???). Included in the box are:
  • The Norman itself (yup, made in China),
  • A right-angled magnetic bracket,
  • A green target plate, also magnetic, and with a collapsible rear foot to make it free standing,
  • The aforementioned pouch - only big enough for the actual laser and no accessories, not even cells,
  • Four AA cells of uncertain origin (not a big name brand)*,
  • Some "Rosetta Stone" instructions in a variety of languages (cuneiform also available for download).

The first thing that struck me was the physical size of the thing: 2.5" x 5" x 4.5" (60 x 120 x 125 mm). It's got lots of moulded-in rubber, but I haven't dropped it to see if that upsets the calibration. It probably needs to be big, but this has proven awkward in the small space I have been working in recently.

Controls
There's a big on-off slider switch, on one side and one 'membrane' button to switch modes (I wonder how long that will survive!).

These are both annoying: If you have carefully set the thing on a lightweight tripod to an exact position (see below), the on-off switch is rigid enough to knock it out of position, even if you are using both hands in an effort to prevent this happening.

In passing, I think they have the switch ergonomics wrong, as "off" is to the front, which feels wrong. It's quite stiff, as it's also the anti-shock clamp for the mechanism. They also have a silly diagonal ridge on the switch, so that wet fingers slip off it - a triumph of form over function. You'll need the anti-shock clamp, as you may well knock the entire thing over (including the tripod) if you reach for it one-handed without looking. Don't ask me how I know this.

And you do have to switch it off between uses, as it eats batteries. I would guess you get <10 hours from a supermarket set of AAs. Leica units have a nice, low-power feature, for when extremely bright light isn't needed. Norman doesn't. The instructions don't prohibit rechargeable batteries, but they don't recommend them either.

The button (level / plumb-line / both, & auto-off cancel) has to be pressed every time the unit is turned on because it doesn't remember what the setting was previously. At least this one is almost over the tripod bush. Next to it is a 3-bar battery-remaining indicator, which is worth keeping an eye on (see above).

The beam
The actual laser lines are bright and strong, and visible outdoors in dull daylight over 30ft. The green target works, too: it's translucent and graduated, and one half has a reflector behind the plastic, which makes the beam more visible, possibly at the expense of some accuracy. As I said I haven't used this as I've not needed it for real outdoors, but it's possibly the best thought-out part of the unit in terms of its usability.

It's worth mentioning here that the beam spread, horizontally for the level line, and vertically for the plumbline, is very impressive. For setting out indoors (in my case for a small amount of remedial tiling) it seems to be really good. The plumb-line hits the ceiling almost directly above the unit, and the level line is close to 180 degrees left-right. This explains the poor battery life, incidentally: there's no magic available, so if you want a line over a wide arc, that's inevitably going to mean a powerful laser to start with.

There's a limited amount of pendulum action available, which is understandable: if you tilt Norman out of true in any axis beyond four degrees the lines will flash manaically. In order to prevent this, it is handy to have a small bubble level balanced on top when setting up...

Mounting Norman***
The tripod bush is a real PITA: It's evident that Bosch intend Norman's outer shell to be used for a variety of products, as the bush is surrounded by a screwed-on, recessed, plastic quick-release plate (which doesn't fit the supplied bracket, nor any other accessory, as far as I can see!). This reduces the surface area around the threaded hole itself, meaning that, unless a wide auxiliary plate is used, it is hard to make the mounting rigid enough.

The bottom of the unit is not the flat surface you'd expect on, say, a camera. It's got inexplicable recesses of various depths, and the only bit forming a useful plane is the set of rubber corners & edges. The mounting bush is recessed from those by about 1.5mm - enough to break something if overtightened.

I have a few Manfrotto/Bogen** quick release plates for photography, and these work extremely well with this unit - they are wide enough to grip the base securely, and don't come loose. With just a cheap tripod and a small contact area, you probably won't be so lucky.
The bush is also a long way back from the axis of the laser - about 2 1/4" (55mm). This means alignment errors are difficult to fix in small spaces (grrr!), as the unit describes an arc of about 3" altogether (6" diameter).

I suppose I should mention the supplied L-bracket. It has a keyhole to take a screw at the top, and very strong magnets, (in case you drop a screwdriver down a drain, or something?). It's not a correct right angle, and it's not useful to me, as I rarely work over drains. Duly mentioned, however.

Hope all that is useful.

I think it will serve for a good while - the last one did about 15 years, and this one is more sensible, probably. Value for money? Probably poor, unless I have an in-warranty issue with it, although the actual beam spread seems excellent for indoor use, which is mostly what I want it for.

If I wanted something for outdoors, I would probably look for a much narrower spread (so it carries further), or buy a receiver, or hire a Leica, or just go old school and use a water level and/or a plumbline. The manufacturers ought to be more open about this and guide people to the right tool for each purpose. That said, if I was, for example, just trying to get a good fall on guttering, this would be fine.

E.

------
*I bought Norman as an "Amazon Warehouse" item - returned or repacked at a reasonable discount (with "professional" warranty). This might have meant the original batteries were replaced - the ones supplied were evidently brand new and shrink-wrapped, just not big-brand.

**This link is to a shameless knock-off of the original Manfrotto/Bogen ones, but I have bought several and found them to be very good, with one slight exception - the female thread on the receiver plate is not as deep (or as strong!) as the ones on the original Manfrotto units https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07D5ZF2TT. The receiver thread on both original and copy is 3/8 Whit/UNC (European microphone stand and large-format camera size), which means you need the supplied adapter for almost all cheap tripods.

***Just stop it, OK?
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby RogerS » 04 Sep 2022, 12:21

Good review, thanks, Eric :text-bravo:
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Sep 2022, 16:52

RogerS wrote:
AJB Temple wrote:
I bought that Huespar model that you suggested, Adrian. It is 100% useless outside. You have to lash out more money to get their receiver. The self-levelling takes forever which rules it out for many tasks. So I'm in two minds about sending it back TBH.


Mindful of your experience Roger I thought I would post as I used mine today. Indoors I had to set out 9 vertical posts floor to ceiling in a walk in wardrobe I am being forced to build. Laser was mounted on a decent photo tripod that was standing on a solid oak floor. The laser beam wobbles for about 1 second or a fraction less before stabilising.

I also used it, mainly to test, outside. Mine came with a plastic receptor (not electronic) that shows up the beam. I actually used it to set up a couple of rows of raised beds (that I am being forced to install). It was patchy sun and I could see the laser over the required distance which was about 35 metres. Not brilliant but visible. The previous de walt red laser I had was invisible outside unless it was near dark. In my (limited) experience, only very expensive surveying lasers are much good outside, and they always use receptors or special optics as far as I have seen.

I think it is more than satisfactory for the money, for my use anyway, but you do seem to be a bit unlucky with tools Roger. Quite possibly I have lower expectations too.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby RogerS » 08 Sep 2022, 18:24

Maybe mine was faulty? Who knows. Certainly took longer than a second to stabilise. Reading the 1* and 2* reviews on Amazon it would appear that I am not alone. My laser outside couldn't even reach 2.4m - thought I might go out at night time. I agree tha the red laser was no better.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Cabinetman » 09 Sep 2022, 12:21

Comprehensive review thank you Eric, with all the design niggles it makes you wonder what planet some of these firms are on. Just thrown away a DeWalt screwdriver bit holder, most are magnetic which is handy for picking up screws, this one had a nasty spring clip to hold the bit in, and every single time I wanted to change the bit I had to find and use a pair of pliers to get it out! Gave me great pleasure to throw it away!
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Sep 2022, 14:36

Actually I do have a niggle on that laser. I has a switch on the front that is beneath the laser lenses, that you have to toggle for locked / unlocked and off. The off position doesn't turn the laser off though, as you still need to press the switch on the top, which also toggles between the laser lines. It's fiddly.

This sounds trivial but is surprisingly annoying as it is very easy to move the tripod or head when turning it off. Getting laser lines in exactly the same place again can take a while. You need to turn it off when making a cup of tea or something, as these things eat batteries. Much worse than De Walt. It's lazy engineering I think. Presumably the front switch has a mechanical aspect to lock the self levelling off.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Eric the Viking » 12 Sep 2022, 11:14

AJB Temple wrote:...This sounds trivial but is surprisingly annoying as it is very easy to move the tripod or head when turning it off. Getting laser lines in exactly the same place again can take a while. You need to turn it off when making a cup of tea or something, as these things eat batteries. Much worse than De Walt. It's lazy engineering I think. Presumably the front switch has a mechanical aspect to lock the self levelling off.


The Bosch unit I bought is no different, insofar as the on/off switch also clamps the pendulum, making the switch awkward to use. It's the biggest irritation in using it.

You might try splashing out 13 quid or so on the quick release plate I mentioned above - there's very little force required to mount/dismount whatever is on the thing, so it doesn't disturb even lightweight tripods. In the case of the Bosch, it doesn't block the battery cover, so you can also re-battery the thing without upsetting the laser line (dismount & rebattery, then re-mount in the same setup).

There is a very small amount of sideways play in the knock-off versions I have, but you can eliminate that just by ensuring the plate and receiver are aligned by finger pressure - the sides should be in the same plane, and you can feel that easily before locking them together (which needs almost no pressure).

It's a good, practical design, and I presently have about* five of them, mostly for photography, carrying quite large and heavy cameras.

Image

*I can count! One set came permanently part of a ball+socket head, one is original Manfrotto/Bogen, and three others are the copies, one of which is dedicated to a second ball head. I think I've got three of the basic sets. So it all depends how one chooses to count them.
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Re: Favourite cross-line laser levels?

Postby Doug » 18 Sep 2022, 14:03

Eric the Viking wrote:I owe the team a review of the Bosch one I bought:

It's a green, GLL 2-15-G, which in future I shall simply call "Norman" (Bosch evidently haven't got the hang of product naming).

Caveat: I've only really used it indoors, in a very confined space. That said, it did what I needed, pretty much.

I paid £134 as an Amazon Warehouse deal, and I am not sure it was a bargain, even though it was about £40 off the then list price.

"Scope of delivery" (wot???)

It comes in a cardboard box, with a rather absurd carrying pouch inside (with a belt loop - really???). Included in the box are:
  • The Norman itself (yup, made in China),
  • A right-angled magnetic bracket,
  • A green target plate, also magnetic, and with a collapsible rear foot to make it free standing,
  • The aforementioned pouch - only big enough for the actual laser and no accessories, not even cells,
  • Four AA cells of uncertain origin (not a big name brand)*,
  • Some "Rosetta Stone" instructions in a variety of languages (cuneiform also available for download).

The first thing that struck me was the physical size of the thing: 2.5" x 5" x 4.5" (60 x 120 x 125 mm). It's got lots of moulded-in rubber, but I haven't dropped it to see if that upsets the calibration. It probably needs to be big, but this has proven awkward in the small space I have been working in recently.

Controls
There's a big on-off slider switch, on one side and one 'membrane' button to switch modes (I wonder how long that will survive!).

These are both annoying: If you have carefully set the thing on a lightweight tripod to an exact position (see below), the on-off switch is rigid enough to knock it out of position, even if you are using both hands in an effort to prevent this happening.

In passing, I think they have the switch ergonomics wrong, as "off" is to the front, which feels wrong. It's quite stiff, as it's also the anti-shock clamp for the mechanism. They also have a silly diagonal ridge on the switch, so that wet fingers slip off it - a triumph of form over function. You'll need the anti-shock clamp, as you may well knock the entire thing over (including the tripod) if you reach for it one-handed without looking. Don't ask me how I know this.

And you do have to switch it off between uses, as it eats batteries. I would guess you get <10 hours from a supermarket set of AAs. Leica units have a nice, low-power feature, for when extremely bright light isn't needed. Norman doesn't. The instructions don't prohibit rechargeable batteries, but they don't recommend them either.

The button (level / plumb-line / both, & auto-off cancel) has to be pressed every time the unit is turned on because it doesn't remember what the setting was previously. At least this one is almost over the tripod bush. Next to it is a 3-bar battery-remaining indicator, which is worth keeping an eye on (see above).

The beam
The actual laser lines are bright and strong, and visible outdoors in dull daylight over 30ft. The green target works, too: it's translucent and graduated, and one half has a reflector behind the plastic, which makes the beam more visible, possibly at the expense of some accuracy. As I said I haven't used this as I've not needed it for real outdoors, but it's possibly the best thought-out part of the unit in terms of its usability.

It's worth mentioning here that the beam spread, horizontally for the level line, and vertically for the plumbline, is very impressive. For setting out indoors (in my case for a small amount of remedial tiling) it seems to be really good. The plumb-line hits the ceiling almost directly above the unit, and the level line is close to 180 degrees left-right. This explains the poor battery life, incidentally: there's no magic available, so if you want a line over a wide arc, that's inevitably going to mean a powerful laser to start with.

There's a limited amount of pendulum action available, which is understandable: if you tilt Norman out of true in any axis beyond four degrees the lines will flash manaically. In order to prevent this, it is handy to have a small bubble level balanced on top when setting up...

Mounting Norman***
The tripod bush is a real PITA: It's evident that Bosch intend Norman's outer shell to be used for a variety of products, as the bush is surrounded by a screwed-on, recessed, plastic quick-release plate (which doesn't fit the supplied bracket, nor any other accessory, as far as I can see!). This reduces the surface area around the threaded hole itself, meaning that, unless a wide auxiliary plate is used, it is hard to make the mounting rigid enough.

The bottom of the unit is not the flat surface you'd expect on, say, a camera. It's got inexplicable recesses of various depths, and the only bit forming a useful plane is the set of rubber corners & edges. The mounting bush is recessed from those by about 1.5mm - enough to break something if overtightened.

I have a few Manfrotto/Bogen** quick release plates for photography, and these work extremely well with this unit - they are wide enough to grip the base securely, and don't come loose. With just a cheap tripod and a small contact area, you probably won't be so lucky.
The bush is also a long way back from the axis of the laser - about 2 1/4" (55mm). This means alignment errors are difficult to fix in small spaces (grrr!), as the unit describes an arc of about 3" altogether (6" diameter).

I suppose I should mention the supplied L-bracket. It has a keyhole to take a screw at the top, and very strong magnets, (in case you drop a screwdriver down a drain, or something?). It's not a correct right angle, and it's not useful to me, as I rarely work over drains. Duly mentioned, however.

Hope all that is useful.

I think it will serve for a good while - the last one did about 15 years, and this one is more sensible, probably. Value for money? Probably poor, unless I have an in-warranty issue with it, although the actual beam spread seems excellent for indoor use, which is mostly what I want it for.

If I wanted something for outdoors, I would probably look for a much narrower spread (so it carries further), or buy a receiver, or hire a Leica, or just go old school and use a water level and/or a plumbline. The manufacturers ought to be more open about this and guide people to the right tool for each purpose. That said, if I was, for example, just trying to get a good fall on guttering, this would be fine.

E.

------
*I bought Norman as an "Amazon Warehouse" item - returned or repacked at a reasonable discount (with "professional" warranty). This might have meant the original batteries were replaced - the ones supplied were evidently brand new and shrink-wrapped, just not big-brand.

**This link is to a shameless knock-off of the original Manfrotto/Bogen ones, but I have bought several and found them to be very good, with one slight exception - the female thread on the receiver plate is not as deep (or as strong!) as the ones on the original Manfrotto units https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07D5ZF2TT. The receiver thread on both original and copy is 3/8 Whit/UNC (European microphone stand and large-format camera size), which means you need the supplied adapter for almost all cheap tripods.

***Just stop it, OK?


Thanks for that Eric it’s so refreshing to get a balanced review, all to often folks seem to want to justify their purchase rather than give an honest assessment.
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