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Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

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Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 01 Aug 2022, 16:25

I have posted elsewhere about some ebony i would like to use for a pen. As the pen will be going to an amateur horologist I thought that it would be cool to make the Celtic knot in brass.


Is this the sort of brass I need ?
https://www.metaloffcuts.co.uk/product/ ... ass-sheet/
It has a sticky side which I guess I will need to cleaned, (How?) then use araldite for glueing.
Has to be 0.7mm as that matches the saw kerf of my champion mitre saw which is how I made this.
Image

I'm beginning to look forward to the challenge of doing this. Something different.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Cabinetman » 01 Aug 2022, 17:04

Well yes, but (unless I’ve missed something) what does a Celtic knot have to do with clocks? As the pen is made from wood wouldn’t something to do with Harrison be more appropriate?
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Help

Postby Andyp » 01 Aug 2022, 17:10

Your are right Ian. The Celtic knot in itself has nothing to do with clocks. When I showed him the one above as an example of what I can do he marvelled at how the knot is made. The only link to clock making is the brass as I believe he uses a fair bit in his clocks.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Help

Postby Woodster » 01 Aug 2022, 18:26

Andyp wrote:Your are right Ian. The Celtic knot in itself has nothing to do with clocks. When I showed him the one above as an example of what I can do he marvelled at how the knot is made. The only link to clock making is the brass as I believe he uses a fair bit in his clocks.


Yes, used a lot in Clockmaking. If you can find someone local, get the brass sandblasted before you glue it up.

This is an interesting video about surface preparation.

https://youtu.be/x7onZGqrYyY

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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 01 Aug 2022, 18:34

Woodster wrote: If you can find someone local, get the brass sandblasted before you glue it up.


Will roughing the surface up with sandpaper have a similar effect which I imagine is to help adhesion?
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Woodster » 01 Aug 2022, 19:47

Andyp wrote:
Woodster wrote: If you can find someone local, get the brass sandblasted before you glue it up.


Will roughing the surface up with sandpaper have a similar effect which I imagine is to help adhesion?


Not nearly as good as sandblasting but it should help.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Doug » 01 Aug 2022, 20:44

I used to do quite a bit of segmenting in pens years ago, to speed up the progress it’s handy to be able to use CA glue otherwise the glue ups take ages.
The problem I found with thicker metals was even drilling slowly enough heat was generated to cause the glue to fail. I did have limited success using epoxy resin but again it tends to go soft when heat is generated.
I also found blanks made with thicker metals had a greater frequency to come apart when being turned.
By far the most successful were the ones I made from aluminium drinks cans the thin metal turns easily & very little heat is produced when drilling, I used to laminate the ally with black plastic to give greater effect like the one below.

5E334835-BFA8-49D3-8C0B-5AA187B7DC89.jpeg
(114.97 KiB)


If possible I’d definitely suggest you find the thinnest brass you can, I only used to sand the surfaces of ally & plastic & they glued up fine, the laminations were glued with epoxy into a sheet which was then cut & glued to the blank with CA.

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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Sheffield Tony » 01 Aug 2022, 21:55

Brass shim stock ?
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 02 Aug 2022, 06:57

Nice pen Doug and thanks for the heads up re drilling brass. I have read a number of articles about ebony splitting when over heated during drilling so I need to think about that. The wood is too precious to risk any failures. :eusa-think:
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Phil Pascoe » 02 Aug 2022, 08:32

If you know a silversmith or serious jewelry maker they could put brass through their rolling mill to your exact dimension. This would also work harden it and probably make it easier and cleaner to drill. Use a new Dormer, Presto or other top class bit and you shouldn't have too much of a problem with heat.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Woodster » 02 Aug 2022, 14:33

All the brass I’ve drilled has been quite easy. It’s best though to use a proper drill bit for brass.
It’s very easy to do yourself and should prevent any overheating.

https://handycrowd.medium.com/drilling- ... 494d449d3a
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 02 Aug 2022, 19:31

If I were to use 0.7mm aluminium, copper or brass to make the knot do I have to do anything different during finishing in order for the metal not to tarnish? Will anyone of those metals be more likely to tarnish?
My preferred finish of late for pens is Chestnut microcrystalline wax.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Doug » 02 Aug 2022, 20:08

I always use CA as the finish when doing segmented pens Andy my logic being that it will fill any imperfections & hold everything together.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 02 Aug 2022, 20:29

Doug, I’ve watched the videos, read loads and tried a number of times but CA has defeated me. Always ends up a mess.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Doug » 02 Aug 2022, 21:01

Perhaps then try melamine lacquer, it can be buffed if you want a gloss finish just follow the instructions on the tin.
I’d not heard of brass shim stock that Tony suggested but fortunately Tuesday evening is the night I have a couple of pints with 3 old retired engineers so I asked about it, hopefully I’ll get hold of some in the near future & try it out but it won’t be too soon as I’m rushed off my feet at the mo.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Woodster » 03 Aug 2022, 10:35

There are a lots of different sizes and thicknesses on the auction site.

Image
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 03 Aug 2022, 11:25

Thanks Woodster. Brass, Alu and Copper sheets all readily available in the desired thickness to match my saw kerf. Just need to convince myself which would look best.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Woodster » 03 Aug 2022, 20:02

They all tarnish unless treated. As suggested Melamine Lacquer should do the job. I like the look of copper myself.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Dalboy » 04 Aug 2022, 08:28

Woodster wrote:All the brass I’ve drilled has been quite easy. It’s best though to use a proper drill bit for brass.
It’s very easy to do yourself and should prevent any overheating.

https://handycrowd.medium.com/drilling- ... 494d449d3a


I also use this method and have two sets of drills in both imperial and metric.

But I think for this case where the brass in sandwiched between wood and very thin that normal ground drills will be good enough
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Lons » 04 Aug 2022, 09:33

Dalboy wrote:
Woodster wrote:All the brass I’ve drilled has been quite easy. It’s best though to use a proper drill bit for brass.
It’s very easy to do yourself and should prevent any overheating.

https://handycrowd.medium.com/drilling- ... 494d449d3a


I also use this method and have two sets of drills in both imperial and metric.

But I think for this case where the brass in sandwiched between wood and very thin that normal ground drills will be good enough


+1
If I'm drilling through solid material I use bits ground for brass but not it's necessary when drilling a pen blank with only thin metal laminate I use the standard bits as normal the most important factors are that it's sharp, at the right speed and regularly withdrawn to clear debris, you're drilling mostly through wood anyway and in this case it has to cut through ebony without excess heat build up. You can cut brass shim with a Stanley knife if you had to, I've done it though not to be recommended.
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Re: Brass sheet 0.7mm in celtic knot. Helpo

Postby Andyp » 08 Aug 2022, 17:18

Thanks chaps, I’m not ignoring you just sans interweb at the moment. 6 days now. If I go down the metallic celtic cross route I will do a few tests. At the moment without the web I cant even order the metal sheets.
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