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V & A coffee table

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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby RogerM » 19 Jun 2022, 18:00

Andyp wrote:I could make the grooves in the rails with the biscuit jointer. Far more controller in my hands than a router.

Good idea or not?


Sounds like a good idea to me. This is my first visit to this thread after a long layoff, and this project is looking great Andy.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 19 Jun 2022, 19:28

Thanks Roger,
I have just about finished sanding the leg ends. Rails and stretcher cut to size. I had a go at carving some relief into the letters but it looked awful so I have scrapped that idea.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 21 Jun 2022, 19:25

Dry loose fit of the legs, stretcher and rails. 5mm dowels used in 6mm holes just to see what it looks like. Coming together more or less as planned. Probably not as neat and tidy as I would have hoped. Perhaps from a distance it wont look so bad.

7534F6A1-CC0C-4EBE-85CE-45075B0AB066.jpeg
(303.88 KiB)


Question,
If I stain this to match an existing small table I will use a medium oak spirit stain. Should I stain before gluing or after?
cheers
Andy
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Mike G » 21 Jun 2022, 20:10

I think if I were staining something as complex as this, with all those nooks and crannies, I'd do it beforehand, but also apply a coat of finish. That way, your glue will wipe off cleanly without leaving a trace.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Malc2098 » 22 Jun 2022, 10:55

Coming along really nicely.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Phil » 24 Jun 2022, 11:46

Mike G wrote:I think if I were staining something as complex as this, with all those nooks and crannies, I'd do it beforehand, but also apply a coat of finish. That way, your glue will wipe off cleanly without leaving a trace.



:text-goodpost:

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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2022, 12:42

Applying the stain to all surfaces is straight forward enough. The joints are butt with through dowels. Keeping the varnish off the end grain of the rails and stretcher is easy enough. How to keep it off the face grain of the legs is taxing me somewhat. Or does it matter? There is obviously is very little strength in an end grain to face grain butt joint, the strength comes from the dowels, so having varnish in the way probably wont have much effect.

Finish will be polyurethane varnish. First few coats thinned.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby spb » 24 Jun 2022, 12:49

Put masking tape over the area of face grain, poke holes in it where the dowels need to go, then dry-assemble the joint with the tape in between. Now you can trim off any exposed tape, disassemble the joint, and apply finish.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2022, 15:33

I have done some dummy runs on some offcuts and the dowels are a very tight fit. I really do not think that they would come apart if I knocked them fully home.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby DaveL » 24 Jun 2022, 17:08

Andyp wrote:I have done some dummy runs on some offcuts and the dowels are a very tight fit. I really do not think that they would come apart if I knocked them fully home.

Is there room for any glue on the dowels or are you relying on friction?
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 24 Jun 2022, 17:26

When I did this before I scratched the dowel across the teeth of a saw to scuff them up a bit and give the glue something to cling to.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby AndyT » 24 Jun 2022, 18:09

Dowels need at least one longitudinal groove, to let glue get past them as they are knocked home.
If there's no escape route for the glue, a dowel can work like a hydraulic ram and make it burst through the surface of the wood. Or just stop you getting the joint together.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Woodbloke » 24 Jun 2022, 22:16

Andyp wrote:I have done some dummy runs on some offcuts and the dowels are a very tight fit. I really do not think that they would come apart if I knocked them fully home.


That's happened to me so I usually do a dummy run with looser or old dowels to make sure everything goes together and can be knocked apart again

AndyT wrote:Dowels need at least one longitudinal groove, to let glue get past them as they are knocked home.
If there's no escape route for the glue, a dowel can work like a hydraulic ram and make it burst through the surface of the wood. Or just stop you getting the joint together.

On a plain dowel the groove is usually done with by putting a tenon saw in the vice and running the dowel along the the teeth, but yep, you must provide an exit for unwanted glue or you're liable to get 'hydraulic lock'. Bad news - Rob
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 25 Jun 2022, 07:13

Woodbloke wrote:On a plain dowel the groove is usually done with by putting a tenon saw in the vice and running the dowel along the the teeth, but yep, you must provide an exit for unwanted glue or you're liable to get 'hydraulic lock'. Bad news - Rob


Which was what I was trying to explain earlier, not very well.

Andyp wrote:When I did this before I scratched the dowel across the teeth of a saw to scuff them up a bit and give the glue something to cling to.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Cabinetman » 25 Jun 2022, 09:08

The other way it was done was with a piece of scrap wood with a hole the same size as the dowel drilled through it, then knock a panel pin in so that it protrudes into the hole, then push the length of downing through.
Hydraulic lock is a strange thing to witness as the glue emerges/bleeds from the surface or more likely through the pores on the end of the piece of wood. Ian
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby johnward » 25 Jun 2022, 09:47

An amazing piece of work Andy - certainly above my pay grade.

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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 25 Jun 2022, 12:56

Thank you John, I am still not convinced that I can pull it off to my satisfaction but will soldier on.

Buttons made this morning.

4AA17200-3500-4000-90FA-37AD78C9CEB8.jpeg
(368.32 KiB)


Should I also fix the ends to the top with buttons? Can’t make the slots with the biscuit jointer as there is not room. Would have to use a router I guess.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby 9fingers » 25 Jun 2022, 14:18

If you don't use a button at each end, make sure you put one tight into each corner of the frame otherwise in time, the top will slide end to end. DAMHIKT!

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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 25 Jun 2022, 15:43

Makes sense Bob, I’ll have to dig out my little Trend router and see if I have a small enough cutter .
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby 9fingers » 25 Jun 2022, 15:46

Andyp wrote:Makes sense Bob, I’ll have to dig out my little Trend router and see if I have a small enough cutter .

Nooooo you don’t have to put the all in the side rails but makes sure there are 4 at the end of the side rail. Then use the BJ for all

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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Andyp » 25 Jun 2022, 15:58

All the buttons that you can see have already had their slots cut with the BJ.

4CB501A9-F89C-4884-98C2-4E10B623393A.jpeg
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The two red arrows indicate where I will need to rout slots for two extra buttons, one at each end.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby spb » 25 Jun 2022, 16:00

If the boards for your top are running lengthways, then you could also just put a single unglued dowel in the centre of each end piece to positively locate the top in the horizontal plane, with the buttons then being to prevent it lifting or tipping. With all the grain running end to end, there'll be no expansion to worry about in that direction and the dowels wouldn't need any movement room.
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby 9fingers » 25 Jun 2022, 16:15

Andyp wrote:All the buttons that you can see have already had their slots cut with the BJ.

4CB501A9-F89C-4884-98C2-4E10B623393A.jpeg


The two red arrows indicate where I will need to rout slots for two extra buttons, one at each end.

No you are missing my point. Just cut slots in the end of the rail before glue up

ALL buttons fit in the rails none in the ends
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Woodbloke » 25 Jun 2022, 17:43

spb wrote:If the boards for your top are running lengthways, then you could also just put a single unglued dowel in the centre of each end piece to positively locate the top in the horizontal plane, with the buttons then being to prevent it lifting or tipping. With all the grain running end to end, there'll be no expansion to worry about in that direction and the dowels wouldn't need any movement room.


Yep, I'd do that as well. Provided it's a righty-tighty fit, a single dowel at either end will prevent side-to-side top 'slippage' and the buttons, as mentioned above, will keep it from lifting or tipping - Rob
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Re: V & A coffee table

Postby Mike G » 26 Jun 2022, 08:15

Blimey, Andy, that's a lot of buttons. Are you expecting a fierce wrestling match between the legs and the top?
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