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Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

This is where we don't want anything but evidence of your finest wood butchering in all its glorious, and photograph laden glory. Bring your finished products or WIP's, we love them all, so long as there's pictures, and plenty of 'em!

Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 19:18

The Record is this 077A
Record 077A.jpg
(29.98 KiB)


The front comes off (there is a metal shim).

The LN is this and obviously bot are low angle. I use it for guitar work that I used to do when I actually had some skill. Has to be razor sharp.

Lie-Nielsen-No-97-5-Chisel-Plane-400.jpg
(72.05 KiB)


They work fine on hardwoods like oak, rosewood and maple. Hopeless on softwood quite often. I regard this as for fine, rather final trimming. You don't want to be taking lots of material off. You can use a piece of wood and a clamp as a plane stop if you want to guarantee really crisp angles.

A
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 11 Jan 2022, 19:27

Mike G wrote:
PAC1 wrote:Do you want a distinct transition or a gentle transition also known as a curve.....


I'd much prefer a distinct one, rather than a curve. I know guys who use flush trimming bits in a router would produce a rounded transition, and would then be sanding. I don't sand except as a last resort.

Guilty as charged :D . It depends what style I am making. A curve can also look wrong viz the rear rail let alone create setting out problems. As I say the down side of the distinct transition is getting a mark free clean junction an oil finish might be more forgiving on that front.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 11 Jan 2022, 19:35

I have wondered about using a V chisel to make the clean transition and then a chisel plane to plane the two inches either side. I have not tried but it ought to work.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 19:58

That Record looks just the job. As you say, it's just for the final finish with the grain, as I can pare the rest away.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 20:00

PAC1 wrote:I have wondered about using a V chisel to make the clean transition and then a chisel plane to plane the two inches either side. I have not tried but it ought to work.


I don't think you'd need the V tool, Peter. So long as you've a pencil mark to work to, working in from either side can leave a really nice clean junction, with care.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby DaveL » 11 Jan 2022, 20:04

I have a Record 311 that you can take the front off, shout if you would like to borrow it Mike.Image
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 11 Jan 2022, 20:29

Mike G wrote:
PAC1 wrote:I have wondered about using a V chisel to make the clean transition and then a chisel plane to plane the two inches either side. I have not tried but it ought to work.


I don't think you'd need the V tool, Peter. So long as you've a pencil mark to work to, working in from either side can leave a really nice clean junction, with care.

To date I have only used a chisel and scraper as you outline to create angled transitions and with care it comes out fine. But usually I only have one or two transitions to do on such as a gothic style door head. A V tool might speed up the process with 24 to do.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 20:57

DaveL wrote:I have a Record 311 that you can take the front off, shout if you would like to borrow it Mike.Image


Oooh, thanks Dave. Yes please, let's give that a go. It should give an idea as to whether it's the right sort of answer for the problem.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 22:03

Well!! I an in a huff now!!! I offer a proper chisel plane and then some imposter comes along :lol:
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 22:08

:lol: Dave's 5 minutes away, that's the difference.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 22:26

I think it's basically the same tool with a different casting for the front Mike. Be interesting to see how you get on with it. Some people find them unusable, )in the same way some people struggle to sharpen stuff - could be a correlation there) but I find if they are well set up and properly sharp, you can do more precise work in tight spots than you can with a chisel. For your application it should work well, as long as you keep it controlled, perhaps with an end stop.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Woodbloke » 11 Jan 2022, 23:11

AJB Temple wrote:
Lie-Nielsen-No-97-5-Chisel-Plane-400.jpg


They work fine on hardwoods like oak, rosewood and maple. Hopeless on softwood quite often. I regard this as for fine, rather final trimming. You don't want to be taking lots of material off. You can use a piece of wood and a clamp as a plane stop if you want to guarantee really crisp angles.

A


I can take off 2 or 3mm with that quite easily; there is a 'knack' :eusa-whistle: and yes it does have to be supersonic sharp and the the blade must be set precisely so that it just touches the work piece - Rob
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 23:18

:lol: You could take a foot off. Just takes forever as in my inexpert hands it needs very fine shavings to work well with an acceptable finish. That said, I am no expert with this and on the whole use a chisel where there is room.

The LN sharpens easier than the Record. No idea what the metals are though. My Record is quite old (still pristine but predates the modern era where people bandy around V11 and suchlike).
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Alf » 12 Jan 2022, 09:17

AJB Temple wrote:That said, I am no expert with this and on the whole use a chisel where there is room.

I think that's traditionally been the choice for everyone, judging by how many vintage chisel planes you don't see.

Bit out of practice with relevant sizes, but I fancy the 073 might make it a bit easier to avoid diving into the cut owing to having more length and heft at the stern than the 077. On the other hand it might be more inclined to be side-to-side tippy. Used to be that making a chisel plane would be the first plane you were likely to make, because it's so easy - and then you'd have next to no use for it, so either give up plane making or became Phil Edwards. But that's by the by. My point being, you might find making one the most effective solution, Mike, because it can have maximum length, minimum height, and whatever width of iron you think you'll be up to pushing.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby johnward » 12 Jan 2022, 10:50

After getting close to the line of the concave part of the chair legs with a skewed No.4 and a block plane I finished with a spokeshave, rasp and file. It was time consuming but with care I achieved a good result.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2022, 10:03

I've made the mock up. What a thoroughly worthwhile exercise it was, too. I've learnt all sorts about the process, and what I would do differently for the real things. This is rough-as-old-boots woodwork. There has been no attempt at cleaning or finishing, and of course, the real feature of these chairs will be the carving, and there is none of that:

Image

Image

Image

Here's one of the things I will definitely do differently:

Image

The acorn is OK, but I thought it might be sweet to mimic the stops from the chamfers just below, but it really doesn't work.

It's a big chair (Ercol for comparison):

Image

Image

But that's OK, because it is a big table in a big room. I think what I'll do, though, is use this height for the carvers and reduce the side chairs by 50mm or so. The carvers are also wider (they have to be).

Here is where I varied from the originals I was copying. This part is turned on those:

Image

But I was dead set against having the back/ leg uprights in two parts, which precluded any turning. That left me with few options. As we have stopped chamfers all over the house that seemed like an idea. I'm still not convinced, but it has received design team approval.

I have also turned the bottom of the front legs down to a taper (as per the originals I was copying), but as my wife put it, it makes it look as though the chair is standing "on point". I'll turn up some balls/pillows and tenon those into the bottom of a shortened leg.

Other alterations will be bigger stretchers, a mono- rather than duo-helix for the barley twist, the back seat rail and back splat will be moved further into the rear leg, and the seat may be an inch too deep. We'll know more on that once I've upholstered it later. As this is going to be upholstered I'll probably make the seat rails deeper and mount the seat board inside them, so that the domed upholstery nails have some long grain rather than end grain to sink into.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Malc2098 » 29 Jan 2022, 10:50

I find chairs with that cross bar, like your barley twist (I think that alone should be a WIP!) mean that I cannot put my legs back under the chair and is uncomfortable/painful when I do. I don't know if I'm strange (! :) ) but I couldn't sit for that length of time with legs straight down.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2022, 11:04

That's why it's high, Malcolm. Obviously, you'd get your legs further under if it wasn't there at all, but you can get your heels in underneath it. Older styles had the stretchers at floor level, and you put your feet on them. This was as a result of earthen floors with rushes, which were pretty unpleasant. As an aside, this height also allows a vacuum cleaner access. Another example of societal norms being captured for posterity in our furniture and buildings.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AndyT » 29 Jan 2022, 11:26

Fascinating and very educational.

I'll offer a few comments now, rather than after you've made the set, if I may.

Turning on the back doesn't mean it has to be made in two parts and you'll have seen pictures of historical examples of this. I'm sure I have seen a diagram of the top part horizontal on a lathe, up to the bend, then with the foot supported on the edge of a big disk. Possibly a bit scary on a powered lathe but practical on something slower.

I do like the stopped chamfers on the back posts though and I expect they will echo similar details elsewhere in the house.

I did find my eye was drawn to the transition between the verticals and the arcs on the back panels and I don't think they are quite right. The arcs possibly need to either be full semicircles so there is no step between straight and curved, or much flatter. And there's a related question where the relatively wide arc at the bottom of the back does cut into the horizontal slat rather a lot, making the thin part in the middle look weak. I don't know what the answer is, if there needs to be an answer, but I'd hate for you to notice it too late. Maybe the central flat could be narrower?

Certainly watching with interest and admiration.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby 9fingers » 29 Jan 2022, 11:52

AndyT wrote:
I did find my eye was drawn to the transition between the verticals and the arcs on the back panels and I don't think they are quite right. The arcs possibly need to either be full semicircles so there is no step between straight and curved, or much flatter. And there's a related question where the relatively wide arc at the bottom of the back does cut into the horizontal slat rather a lot, making the thin part in the middle look weak. I don't know what the answer is, if there needs to be an answer, but I'd hate for you to notice it too late. Maybe the central flat could be narrower?

Certainly watching with interest and admiration.


I tend to agree AndyT, perhaps the chord length of the curved part should be made equal to the width of the central back portion.

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Andyp » 29 Jan 2022, 12:11

:text-+1: for how you did the barley twist.
:text-+1: for extending the top arc to the width of the back panel.

But who I am to criticise?

Would take me 6-8 weeks to make one. Somewhat surprised that it would take you so long to make the whole set. :)
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2022, 12:42

I'll do a proper WIP in this thread for the chairs when I come to do the real ones, so that will cover the barley twist etc.

Now is the time to raise these issues, and all comments are gratefully received. I did draw it initially with the arch being semi-circular. The issues are the height and grain direction of the top rail, and the thickness of the bottom rail. So, as Andy says, the answer is to maybe be a little flatter. Maybe this version is neither one thing nor the other. The only downside of flattening it a little is that the gaps around a circular Tudor Rose on the centrepoint of the same arc can start to look a little uncomfortable. I'll certainly have a look at adjusting this.

My lathe isn't long enough to do the frightening thing Andy suggests. It would need to be about 2 feet longer, I reckon, for that, and the height over the bed probably wouldn't allow it anyway. I'm glad the chamfers don't offend.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Windows » 29 Jan 2022, 12:56

Fascinating project. I love these project threads. Are all the side chairs going to be the same size? And if so, what size human are they designed for?
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 29 Jan 2022, 13:25

The side chairs are the same size, but the carvers are going to be wider and taller. That's traditional, but for a very good reason: the arms in chairs of that era sat directly on top of the extended front legs, rather than on separate side pieces. This means the chair needs to be wider to allow someone to fit between them.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 29 Jan 2022, 13:55

Excellent and that’s just the mock up
My immediate suggestion is: I would make the acorns slightly smaller.
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