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Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Woodbloke » 10 Jan 2022, 12:50

AJB Temple wrote: Domino machine is fab Mike.


:text-+1: As has been suggested above, keep the tenons straight and angle the mortices - Rob
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Weekend_Woodworker » 10 Jan 2022, 14:18

Mike, Looks like a great project. Far more than I would dare take on, but I will read with interest and looking forward to learning lots in the process. Mark
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby kirkpoore1 » 10 Jan 2022, 14:40

That's a lot of mortises.

Angled tenons aren't that easy either, but if you can put together a good jig to cut them consistently on a table saw they will go OK. If you're going to hand cut them, then by the end I think you'll have worked out the process. :)

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 19:01

I don't have a tablesaw, Kirk. The chances are I'll set up a jig for the faces of the tenon on the bandsaw, but the shoulders will certainly be cut by hand.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 19:04

Woodbloke wrote:...... :text-+1: As has been suggested above, keep the tenons straight and angle the mortices - Rob


I know that this is what people do if they have access to a morticer, or similar. As I'll be chopping these out by hand, the mortices will be vertical.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 10 Jan 2022, 19:20

Mike G wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:...... :text-+1: As has been suggested above, keep the tenons straight and angle the mortices - Rob


I know that this is what people do if they have access to a morticer, or similar. As I'll be chopping these out by hand, the mortices will be vertical.

You could cut the mortice with a router and make either angled base plate or make a jig to hold the leg at an angle and keep the router level. Given the numbers the latter may be best. Then square up the mortice or heaven forbid round over the tenons
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 10 Jan 2022, 21:58

Can't help thinking Peter has a logical point about the weakness of an angled tenon versus an angled mortise. A morticing machine, domino or even a drill press with a small forstner bit and a jig to hold the legs at the right angle would make repeatable and accurate angled mortice slots very easy and probably make assembly simpler too. Cranked tenons on the side rails will be a challenge to cut (not that I've tried it)?

I've seen a number of very old chairs with turned rails, where the rail fitting is circular (ie a dowel really) going into a circular hold in the legs, both at the sides and front. This must have made production a lot easier. Never thought about it until now, but if decorative turned rails are used to brace the legs low down, this is much easier than rectangular tenons. Doesn't help with the seat rails though. Some really interesting design and manufacture challenges here. Great project and thought provoking thread Mike.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 22:25

I just don't see this as an issue. The tenon is under 5 degrees off straight:

Dining furniture.jpg
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There is no short grain. I don't know where this supposed weakness is coming from.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 09:34

Hi Mike. Interesting that you are making the side rail tenons long and the front (and presumably back) ones short. The grain direction is angled diagonally across the tenon, but as you say it may not be vulnerable at a 7 degree angle.

When people break joints in chairs it is usually caused by a heavy person repeatedly rocking back on the chair's hind legs. (I am a guilty party here). This puts considerable compression on the side rail joints I imagine, tending to force the back legs towards the front. Quite a stubby tenon in the most awkward to cut, angled side rails ought to be sufficient in the lower rails, though probably not the seat rails?

The tenons could all be the same length if staggered by height or mated at at 45 degree angle internally.

I know I overthink this stuff. It stems from an interest in the huge variety of timber framing joints and also from complex structural jointing methods used in Japan. Chairs need to be built for abuse, not just sitting on: n many ways the typical design of 90 degree joints with no angle bracing is a weakness.

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 11:09

They're going to be about 38mm long in a 45mm square leg, and they're about 60mm wide (high), pegged. If I move the rails out closer to the outside face of the leg, they'll be even longer, but of course, at the cost of weakening the leg.

I do a finger joint with the end of the tenons where they meet at right angles. Here's one on my coffee table:

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AndyT » 11 Jan 2022, 11:40

Mike, making such a large set really opens up options for efficient batch production.

I'm sure you will have ideas about this already, but I'd like to mention a little known saw and clamp combo once used by chairmakers. Here it is in Salaman's Dictionary of Woodworking Tools.

IMG_20220111_103119978.jpg
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It's shown set up for curved arms but could easily be adapted with wedge blocks to help cut shoulders on all your angled tenons.

On the other hand, I could be way out of line in suggesting fancy French techniques for accuracy all round. You'll have seen the same advice from Peter Follansbee as I have, that it's only the external, visible shoulders that are pulled up tight, with the internal ones deliberately cut short so that they can.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 12:21

Interesting post that Andy. :text-goodpost: Never seen that before. By angling the base on a simple and cheap custom made saw it would not be hard to make that saw cut the tenon at an exact repeatable angle.

As an aside, as some of you know and have seen, I had cause to dissassemble a fire damaged valuable antique chair just over a year ago. I was surprised that that the side rail tenons had what looked like very fine cloth or linen wrapped around the tenon ends. I've never seen this before (not that I have much experience of taking antiques apart). I can't think of any reason why it would be original unless it was intended to expand with hide glue to get joints super tight. More likely a repair. We may well have forgotten quite a bit about artisan chair making nowadays.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 13:09

Brilliant post, Andy. Thanks for that. I'll have a good look later when I've got a minute.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Robert » 11 Jan 2022, 14:03

This will be interesting to watch :)

I'm sure you will go about it completely differently to me. I made loads of jigs for the router for my 10 chairs. I've not used them since so I'll bin them sometime this year.

Making thread was on WH1 but I did repost the pictures here on WH2 viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1055
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Stargazer » 11 Jan 2022, 14:28

Hi Mike, I will be watching the table build closely, I have been slowly building up a 'set' of windsor chairs, either made myself at home or made as part of a chair making course with James Mursell, I am unto 5 with 2 more underway.

The issue with our current table is the style, if is a standard oak table with 4 legs and a deep apron which precludes carver chairs completely. We are looking at pedestal type refectory table with no apron to seat 6 chairs around including a few carvers.

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 14:51

I remember yours well, Robert. It was a beautiful result, but as you say, we'll probably tackle these things in quite different ways. It isn't impossible I'll make one or two router jigs, but I have to say it's fairly unlikely. Fifteen or 20 years ago I would have done it much the way you did.

I grew up with an oak pedestal dining table and a set of Windsor chairs, Ian. I loved it, especially the wedged tusk tenons.....and that one carver where you could reach around behind and rattle one of the loose spindles. I visited my old dad 20 odd years later, and just about the first thing I did was try that spindle. Still loose!
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 18:09

I've had this project on my mind for 2 or 3 years now, and the thing which I've always worried about is the back of the legs. The 2 inches either side of the change in direction:

Image

I've just started the mock-up, and the highlighted area is the bit I'm talking about. OK, in the real thing there won't be knots right on the junction, but nonetheless, this is an awkward thing to get to grips with. I planed on the skew, then took a scraper to it (not great with softwood), then a spokeshave, and finally I pared it. Frankly, it's just not good enough:

Image

Do I need a bull-nose plane, or something similar? Even most bull-nose planes seem to have something in front of the blade, though, so wouldn't get right into the corner. I don't want to just fudge this and round it, unless I absolutely have to. Does anyone know what they might have used in days gone by? Does anyone have a blockplane, and have a view on whether or not that would be my answer? I presume luthiers run into this sort of thing a lot, so what do they (you) use?
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 11 Jan 2022, 18:22

Chisel plane. Bull nose with the front off. They do work but you need it super sharp and take thin shavings.

I can lend you one if you want. It's a Record convertible bull/chisel. I have a LN one somewhere as well.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 18:25

Ah, that's more like it. Thanks Adrian. Thanks for the kind offer. If I don't have luck finding one I'll come back to you.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Woodbloke » 11 Jan 2022, 18:29

AJB Temple wrote:Chisel plane. Bull nose with the front off. They do work but you need it super sharp and take thin shavings.

I can lend you one if you want. It's a Record convertible bull/chisel. I have a LN one somewhere as well.

The other alternative is a proper chisel plane; I have a LN one and if used properly (and it's an art) it's an invaluable bit of kit - Rob
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AndyT » 11 Jan 2022, 18:31

Mike, I have made just one chair, a library steps convertible. I wrote it up in another place in great detail.

Here's a picture of me planing that awkward corner

Image

According to the other thread, I just slewed the no 4 round and finished off with a scraper.
I was using some really mild hardwood (possibly sapele on the legs). I expect your softwood mock up is much harder to finesse than oak will be.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 18:57

One of the problems, Andy, is that the leg is nearly 2 inches wide. That means a 45 degree attack on the junction leaves quite a big area untouched. Another is that I will be cutting out with a bandsaw, so I'll be sawing quite a way away from the line. There'll be a couple of mm of material to remove. I'm good at paring, but there has to be a better way.

I'm having a look at one of these, although I don't have high hopes at that price.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AndyT » 11 Jan 2022, 19:03

Other options include a big paring chisel flat on the wood with the bevel up, and a sideways slicing cut, or a plane iron used "bare" in a similar way.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 11 Jan 2022, 19:05

Do you want a distinct transition or a gentle transition also known as a curve. I agree it is a real head scratcher as to what works. Do one of each in your mock up if you are undecided. I was undecided when I did my mock up. Given your design a distinct transition might fit the design best but it is worth considering alternatives now.
From a finishing point of view the distinct transition is a headache. The slightest chisel mark will show
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 11 Jan 2022, 19:12

PAC1 wrote:Do you want a distinct transition or a gentle transition also known as a curve.....


I'd much prefer a distinct one, rather than a curve. I know guys who use flush trimming bits in a router would produce a rounded transition, and would then be sanding. I don't sand except as a last resort.
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