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Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

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Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 08 Jan 2022, 18:24

This winter's major project is a new dining suite. It will be a big oak pedestal table and 10 chairs (8 side chairs and 2 carvers), designed for 8 place settings without extensions, and 10 or 12 with extensions. Here is the table:

Image

It's not a very enlightening image because it shows stuff on the underside through the table top, and it has the large extension in place. Still, you get the idea. It's going to be about 1100 wide by 2600 long unextended, sitting on 2 pedestals with a stretcher rail between, and all in solid oak. I don't think there'll be any carving on the table as it doesn't have aprons.

Here are the chairs:

Image

That's a side chair, obviously. The carvers are something of an oddity in that they are wider and taller than the side chairs: wider to accomodate the arms, and taller, because that's how Elizabethan and Jacobean furniture was. There'll be more carving on the carvers than on the side chairs.

Before I start on the chairs I am going to build a mock up, but before I start on that I transferred all of the drawings onto MDF templates:

Image

I've never built a chair before, but it is only simple joinery, so it's more going to be an exercise in efficient batch production and patience than a test of skill. It will be a mix of hand and power tools, but all of the joints will be hand-cut M&Ts.

At the moment I don't have any timber! I've had a nightmare trying to buy suitable oak during this crazy period, but I hope to sort that out very shortly.

Those two hollow curves in the back panel would have been a test for my spokeshaving abilities. Do-able, but a test. Now that there is a lathe in the corner of the workshop it was a doddle to produce a quick drum sander:

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I worked out the shape of the paper from first principles and a bit of schoolboy maths, and it fitted first time:

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Going back to the table..........It's been an interesting exercise designing it. Every house I have been in in the last couple of years I have measured the dining table. Having a pedestal puts an obstruction in the way of people's feet, if you're not careful. But with a bit of thought that problem can be designed away. The size of the table is determined by a generous 625mm wide place setting, and it is this which spaces the pedestals.

This build should be fun once it gets going, but I've got no further on the mock-up than cleaning up some reclaimed pine and starting a first cut on the bandsaw, before the bandsaw tyres let me down:

Image

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Jan 2022, 18:30

That will be a very nice project. Are you just doing the extension at one end, or is this just to simplify the drawing?

Most genuine old tables that I have seen have rather thicker tops than yours appears to be. What is the dimension there?

These things at that sort of size have considerable weight. You've seen mine: my wife and I moved it from the room where the piano is, to the new kitchen and just shifting the top was a real struggle.

Would be nice to have just three wider planks if they are available?
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Jan 2022, 18:36

Lovey idea on the drum sander by the way.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Jan 2022, 19:19

Just been thinking about the chairs. Usually Elizabethan chairs have quite simple (almost bobbin style) turned front rails. Just interested in what you are basing the design on. I have a couple of books detailing genuine Tudor, Elizabethan and Jacobean furniture if you would like to borrow them.

Oak Furniture by Victor Chinnery is regarded by many as a definitive guide. Excellent book.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oak-Furniture- ... 1851490132

Bargain at £20.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 08 Jan 2022, 19:28

AJB Temple wrote:That will be a very nice project. Are you just doing the extension at one end, or is this just to simplify the drawing?


There are three extensions: A big one which will go just at one end, and that's what's in the drawing; two smaller ones, which can be used individually, or both at the same time, one on each end. The big one allows the same elbow room, and would be for dinner parties of 10 people. The two smaller ones together allow 12 people, but with slightly reduced elbow room, and that would be for christmas etc.

Most genuine old tables that I have seen have rather thicker tops than yours appears to be. What is the dimension there?


The table top will be between 38 and 45mm thick, or at least, will appear to be. The trick is that only the outer boards (and the breadboard ends will be that thick. The inner boards will be 20-ish mm thick, to try to keep the weight down a bit. I'm going to need half the village to get this top in from the workshop!

These things at that sort of size have considerable weight. You've seen mine: my wife and I moved it from the room where the piano is, to the new kitchen and just shifting the top was a real struggle.


Yep. I've been worried about the weight of this for a while. Yours is a gorgeous table, as I'm sure I said when I saw it.

Would be nice to have just three wider planks if they are available?


I'm just not sure what stock I'm going to be working with. I'd have thought 4 is likely, but yes...it's not going to be an Oak Furnitureland lash-up of 30 or 40mm wide scraps!
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Andyp » 08 Jan 2022, 19:33

This will be worth watching.

Thanks for rekindling an idea I had for thickness sander. With a longer drum with a hinged board underneath and resting on the lathe bed with an adjusting mechanism :eusa-think:
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 08 Jan 2022, 19:34

AJB Temple wrote:Just been thinking about the chairs. Usually Elizabethan chairs have quite simple (almost bobbin style) turned front rails. Just interested in what you are basing the design on. I have a couple of books detailing genuine Tudor, Elizabethan and Jacobean furniture if you would like to borrow them.

Oak Furniture by Victor Chinnery is regarded by many as a definitive guide. Excellent book.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oak-Furniture- ... 1851490132

Bargain at £20.


Thanks for that Adrian. Yes, I've borrowed a copy of that previously from a friend. I might just invest.

I haven't shown the front rail properly because I'm not even sure if I'm going to have one. Working that out is one of the things this mock up will be for. I've seen them with flat bits of wood, too, but very low down. I know that's the authentic look, but they were around as a place to rest your feet out of the muck when straw was on earthen floors , and before Hoovers.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 08 Jan 2022, 19:36

Andyp wrote:.....Thanks for rekindling an idea I had for thickness sander. With a longer drum with a hinged board underneath and resting on the lathe bed with an adjusting mechanism :eusa-think:


That should work, and be very simple to make. It might help if your lathe can run in reverse, otherwise you'd have to pull the workpiece through from the wrong side.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Andyp » 08 Jan 2022, 19:47

Mike G wrote:
Andyp wrote:.....Thanks for rekindling an idea I had for thickness sander. With a longer drum with a hinged board underneath and resting on the lathe bed with an adjusting mechanism :eusa-think:


That should work, and be very simple to make. It might help if your lathe can run in reverse, otherwise you'd have to pull the workpiece through from the wrong side.


Not an original idea see here for further inspiration.

https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/104464

Sorry to go off topic.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 08 Jan 2022, 21:13

I think you need to get adventurous with the carving Mike. Here is an example to aim at. Late 16th Century French "draw table".

16th C draw table.png
(1.09 MiB)


Very sturdy base. Carving might take you a weekend?
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Pete Maddex » 09 Jan 2022, 09:12

I made a softwood and screws mock up for my chairs, thats how I found out it was very uncomfortable.
I needed to angle the seat and curve the back.

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Phil » 09 Jan 2022, 12:56

Looks like a good project Mike, will watch.

(I have just done a clean up on our oak table - solid - which extends to seat 8 and it is flipping heavy! :o )
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Jan 2022, 13:15

I am sure that Mike is well aware that weight is a serious issue and the table must come apart. In his shoes I might be tempted to make either two tables or three leg sets, so that the extension involves adding another leg, another rail and a new top piece, rather than making the supports for leaf extensions (which are rarely very good unless the table mechanism winds out, like the Victorian and Edwardian mahogany dining tables that were very much in vogue in the 1980's and 90's I always think that these old pattern oak tables look best when the tops are thick (mine is nearly 3" thick so it is ludicrously heavy, but it is 400 years old and rather rustic). My preference is not to have breadboard ends, but I like the plain refectory style with very wide boards and probably a bench on one side rather than chairs.

Very good project and I am looking forward to it, especially the chair build production line. I am happy to come over and spend a weekend helping if you like Mike.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby kirkpoore1 » 10 Jan 2022, 04:51

Ambitious! Chairs are hard. You're right to start with those and use mockups to get them right.

How much space will you have to walk around once it's in place?

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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 08:23

Loads, Kirk. The room is 3.7 x 4.7m, so there is 1200+ between the edge of the table and the wall.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 10 Jan 2022, 09:54

Please do not build this in the spring!!! I started a dining table and chairs 25 years ago and I have not even finished one chair. Life, work and a Grade II listed building intervened. Though as we are currently finally refurbishing the dining room to house said table and chairs, the furniture will be required soon. I may even restart it this year.

On a serious note the front legs look like they are designed so that people do not stay at the dining table too long. I know it is the traditional way to have the leg extend higher than the rail. I would try the prototype for a few hours to see if those front legs dig in to your legs. It may depend on the width of your chairs but my bet is on them being uncomfortable.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 10:06

The extended front legs should sit well below the top of the cushions, and the chair is pretty wide too. As you say, though, the test will be sitting on it for a while. I'm quite happy to give up on this detail if it proves uncomfortable, though. And no, the back splat will be fixed, although obviously the upholstery can be removed to be replaced.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Woodbloke » 10 Jan 2022, 10:58

As Kirk mentioned above, 'chairs are hard' I'd add a little caveat and say that they are really hard. The only chairs I've ever built were in a matching set of eight Hepplewhite 'shield back' carvers in maple, with red leather upholstery. The saving grace was that they were eventually sprayed black, thus effectively covering a vast multitude of constructional cock-ups. I was allocated 22.5hrs to build each chair :shock: and it eventually took two of use twice as long to build just one. They was 'ard; boss not happy!

The late and very great Alan Peters recommends somewhere in his rather excellent tome that chair work requires the building of a prototype or 'lash up' in softwood to work out all the constructional details and angles. Construction of the 'lash up' doesn't matter; glue, screws, nails, dowels etc...whatever is convenient and comes to hand - Rob
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 11:01

Yep, that's what I am doing at the moment, Rob.

I've never built a chair, but the only things I can see that are difficult about this design are the skewed tenons. Everything else about the joinery is square and straight.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Woodbloke » 10 Jan 2022, 11:04

Mike G wrote:Yep, that's what I am doing at the moment, Rob.

I've never built a chair, but the only things I can see that are difficult about this design are the skewed tenons. Everything else about the joinery is square and straight.

Fair enoughski Mike, but don't, under any circumstances assume that they'll be a 'walk in the park' :eusa-whistle: I can almost guarantee they won't - Rob
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 10 Jan 2022, 11:26

Is the plan to put the pairs of side rail tenons in square to the legs (ie angled tusk) as the drawing appears to suggest, with angled shoulder, or run the side rails straight (with mortices at an angle)? This is really the only bit that should test a skilled woodworkers joinery skills I would think, and lends itself to making a jig to ensure precision with those angles.

I've only made one nice quality chair, which was a reproduction, and I just made a mock up of those joints first, using a degree of trial and error to get the shoulders to fit well. It was time consuming but would have been muck quicker on subsequent chairs as I would have batch produced all the left hand and right hand parts.

I would be tempted to get a morticing machine or use a Domino as a portable mortice hogger for making a chair set, as there are 200 mortices to cut, all dead accurate, for 10 chairs. Get that sharpening station at the ready. Personally I quite like hand making M&T joints, but that is a lot.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby PAC1 » 10 Jan 2022, 11:50

Mike G wrote:Yep, that's what I am doing at the moment, Rob.

I've never built a chair, but the only things I can see that are difficult about this design are the skewed tenons. Everything else about the joinery is square and straight.


Mike if you can keep the tenon straight and angle the Mortice it makes for a far stronger joint.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby johnward » 10 Jan 2022, 11:54

I'll be watching this project with great interest Mike. I really enjoyed making my dining table and chairs although they are much plainer than yours will be. In particular the chairs were fun - getting the angle of the backs and the angled tenons correct were very satisfying. To get the angle of the tenon on the side rails with the off-set legs I drew drew the parts full size on a sheet of ply and from that was able to measure the tenon angle. I got the method from one of Paul Sellars' videos and found it fairly simple once I understood the method.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby Mike G » 10 Jan 2022, 12:10

Yes, Adrian, the tenons will be angled and the mortises square....and they'll be chiselled out by hand. Domino? DOMINO!!! Wash out your mouth....... :lol:

I've already made the template, John, and I did it by printing out that part of the drawing full size with extended lines. It was really easy, but I do have the benefit of having a drawing programme.
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Re: Jacobean style oak dining table & chairs.

Postby AJB Temple » 10 Jan 2022, 12:39

:D Domino machine is fab Mike. You don't need to use it with Dominoes, just as a glorified but very accurate drill. All you have to do then is pop the corners out with a sharp chisel. Saves loads of time. You need to get with it mate. 8-)
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