It is currently 29 Mar 2024, 07:10

Shellac questions

Help with choosing the right coloured milkpaint to slather all over your new project.

Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 01 Jan 2021, 16:27

I am doing something wrong when I apply shellac, but if course I have no idea what, and there is nobody here I can ask so hopefully some of you luthiers will help a man out.
Some days, its perfect. Some days, it never gets perfect, regardless of how many times I sand it off and start again.

I only make moderate priced boxes, so am not interested in a 100 hour french polish glass finish, just a nice smooth shine without streaks.

So without 30 pages of detailed techniques, could you give a point by point guide, as in;

If you measure the shellac mix, what ratio do you use to get a good finish with only a half dozen coats max?
What grit do you sand to before applying?
How do you apply it?
Do you sand between coats, and if so, what grit?
Once you have the finish, do you wax or poly over it?
Ta muchly.
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Malc2098 » 01 Jan 2021, 17:15

Hi SB.

I have no experience myself, but I propose having a go at French Polishing a ukulele this year and came across this luthier's series of videos of how he does it. I think I will try and follow his way.

If you have the time, it might be worth watching and might give you an inkling as to why yours is not consistent.

Good luck.

[youtube]Uf4z14Vjkxk[/youtube]
Malcolm
User avatar
Malc2098
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7209
Joined: 03 Jul 2016, 11:10
Location: Tiverton
Name: Malcolm

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 01 Jan 2021, 18:07

Way too complicated and expensive for me. that west systems epoxy is almost as much as the finished box would be worth. I just want to coat the wood to an acceptable standard as cheaply as possible.
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Trevanion » 01 Jan 2021, 19:57

Well, I can't really say what you're doing wrong Bob without you explaining how you're doing it ;)

I don't do too much work with shellac and finer finishes anymore but I always preferred a one and a half to two-pound cut of shellac for finishing, with something like a half-pound cut for a couple of "priming" coats, so to speak. If you don't already know what a "pound cut" of Shellac is it's simply just the ratio of Shellac to a gallon of alcohol, so a one-pound cut is one pound of flakes mixed with a gallon, you downsize this of course to the amount you actually need which will most likely be around a pint to a two-ounce mix for a one-pound cut, a pint to four-ounce for a two-pound cut and so on.

I like to (hand!) sand with the grain up to 320G, some will advise sanding even further up to 600G but it all depends on the quality of finish your after, a good finish does not come without a good bit of time spent and persistence after all. It's absolutely essential that you wipe down the surface of dust very well with a clean cloth or tak rag.

There are a few ways to apply Shellac, a lot of people like to French Polish it with a pad and rubber but I tend to brush it on. The brush has to be a natural bristle brush but there are varying qualities of brush to be had, generally, the best-regarded brush is a Squirrel hair brush as it is so fine and leaves absolutely no brush marks but an Ox, Badger, Goat, Camel, or even Bear hair brushes work quite well too. Squirrel hair brushes tend to be smaller (for obvious reasons), more expensive and are for more detailed work while the others tend to be larger mops for larger workpieces and fairly priced.

I only de-nib if the surface feels rough and use 000 or 0000 wire wool sparingly, you could use very fine wet and dry but that tends to clog very quickly with shellac and you end up rubbing the finish onto itself which can make it drag and look terrible.

Almost always wax on top although a really nice shellac finish doesn't require any additional finishes, although it is rather weak and delicate compared to a wax over-coat.

It's a trial and error thing really, once you figure out what works for you that tends to be what you stick with.
Image
User avatar
Trevanion
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2162
Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 19:04
Location: Pembrokeshire
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Mike G » 01 Jan 2021, 20:01

Saint Paul did a video on shellac. I haven't watched it:

[youtube]UssYj-98oCg[/youtube]
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 9834
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Suffolk
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Blackswanwood » 01 Jan 2021, 20:38

Bob - can you say a bit more about the symptoms of the issue you are experiencing? Are you brushing the polish or using a rubber?

Cheers
Blackswanwood
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 881
Joined: 27 Jun 2020, 20:24
Location: North Yorkshire
Name: Robert

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 01 Jan 2021, 21:36

I've deliberately NOT told what I do, because its obviously wrong. :?

Up till now I have not measured any shellac mix, just literally a dash of this and a splash of that. Which I think is leading to extreme inconsistencies. I understand the "cut", just wondering exactly what cut is best for three coats only, rather than 57 shades of clear.

It seems that a brush is mandatory. I have been using clean rag the same as wipe on poly but today tried a brush and got awful results.

Mostly, looking at that video, I seem to have fallen into the reason I'm not allowed paint :shock:
I always lay on too much at a time and then work it out until it sticks to the brush rather than the surface :cry: :cry:

I shall have to raid the missus's artist brushes for a decent one, instead of my normal "use it and throw it" cheapo's.

Tomorrow I shall try again, thanks all.
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby billw » 01 Jan 2021, 22:17

I use 30g of flakes in 250ml of spirit, the clear version not the stuff with purple dye added.

Applied with a rubber, tried brushes but wasn’t keen.
billw
New Shoots
 
Posts: 128
Joined: 30 Dec 2020, 21:24
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Name: Bill

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 02 Jan 2021, 06:21

Well thats got me completely confused. :shock:

Exactly which "spirit"? I have white spirit, but have never seen that used with shellac.

Use a "rubber"? not even going to get smutty here, but you cant mean a pencil rubber?
More input, Charlie 5 needs more input 8-)
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Woodbloke » 02 Jan 2021, 10:20

sunnybob wrote:Well thats got me completely confused. :shock:

Exactly which "spirit"? I have white spirit, but have never seen that used with shellac.

Use a "rubber"? not even going to get smutty here, but you cant mean a pencil rubber?
More input, Charlie 5 needs more input 8-)

Clear methylated spirits SB, preferably without the purple die (if you can get it in your neck of the woods) but it works equally well using the died version. See here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmA6YQLaJBM

...about making a 'polishing rubber' - Rob
I no longer work for Axminster Tools & Machinery.
User avatar
Woodbloke
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5866
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 10:06
Location: Salisbury, UK
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 02 Jan 2021, 11:16

Jeeez thats a lot of work. He has enough shellac in that rubber to last me a year. :shock:
All useful learning stuff, but I think I will have to downsize that to suit my very meager needs.

Last time I bought methylated spirits (pink) it took me a month to find a paint shop that had heard of it, and they had to get it sent from a large city 60 miles away.
I have zero chance of finding uncoloured. :cry:
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby billw » 02 Jan 2021, 11:19

sunnybob wrote:Well thats got me completely confused. :shock:

Exactly which "spirit"? I have white spirit, but have never seen that used with shellac.

Use a "rubber"? not even going to get smutty here, but you cant mean a pencil rubber?
More input, Charlie 5 needs more input 8-)


It's sold as "industrial methylated spirits". I got mine from Amazon.

Rubbers - yeah bit of a faff but if you need less, just make it smaller!
billw
New Shoots
 
Posts: 128
Joined: 30 Dec 2020, 21:24
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Name: Bill

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Blackswanwood » 03 Jan 2021, 10:03

Bob, I had pretty poor results when I started trying to Use French Polish on boxes and turned to Andrew Crawford for some help.

Having copied from utoob the rubber I was using was oversized (stop sniggering at the back :lol: ) and the flat face should be no bigger than a fifty pence piece. Apply thin coats and allow to harden properly before knocking the first few back with very fine grit (400 plus). Keep the rubber moving consistently and smoothly across the face you are working on. Don’t let the rubber dry out and lubricate with a drop of baby oil or similar to stop it dragging. It’s not a job to rush.

I hope the above is helpful.
Blackswanwood
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 881
Joined: 27 Jun 2020, 20:24
Location: North Yorkshire
Name: Robert

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Jan 2021, 10:23

That’s interesting Robert, – the baby oil bit, I have always used linseed oil which can build up and spoil the finish if you use more than a tiny dot. Is that the same with baby oil or is it better to use? Ian
Cabinetman
Old Oak
 
Posts: 3197
Joined: 11 Oct 2020, 07:32
Location: Lincolnshire Wolds + Pennsylvania
Name: Ian

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 03 Jan 2021, 10:43

Bill, I've just mixed up a small portion using your ratio (I used 6g to 50 ml meth, sorry, only pink available to me here). Its considerably thicker than I've been using, maybe as much as 4 times as strong. I wont be able to test it on a scrap piece till it completely dissolves.

Making the rubber, even a small one, is unlikely to work for me, I dont use it often enough and it looks like it would waste enormous amounts of shellac for me.

I can get by with soaking a very small square of cotton and swabbing the surface.

I always sand to 320 before applying any finish. I have tried sanding between coats with 600, and even as a last resort 1500, but for whatever reason, it never works for me and I always end up resanding all of it off back to 320.

Luckily I really dont need or want a french polished finish, just something that looks semi professional :lol: 8-)

Plagues notwithstanding, I am due to visit the UK at easter, does anyone know of a short course available for finishing? The closer to the west country the better.
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Jan 2021, 12:33

Hi SB, I don’t French polish from one 9 month to the next year, so I keep my used rubbers (there has to be another way of saying this ha ha) in a jamjar being careful not to get any shellac on the threads, always still usable next time, Old squrty red sauce bottles are good for keeping made up shellac in and good for just squirting a little bit into an opened rubber, the tops are good as they never seem to gum up and not be able to be opened. Ian
Ps if you use cotton wool as you describe it will stick to the surface like mad, a bit of old shirt with the cotton wool inside is all you need.
Cabinetman
Old Oak
 
Posts: 3197
Joined: 11 Oct 2020, 07:32
Location: Lincolnshire Wolds + Pennsylvania
Name: Ian

Re: Shellac questions

Postby TrimTheKing » 03 Jan 2021, 13:07

Cabinetman wrote:Ps if you use cotton wool as you describe it will stick to the surface like mad, a bit of old shirt with the cotton wool inside is all you need.


He said ‘cotton’ not ‘cotton wool’.
Cheers
Mark
TrimTheKing
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7568
Joined: 16 Jun 2014, 13:27
Location: Grappenhall, Cheshire
Name: Mark

Re: Shellac questions

Postby sunnybob » 03 Jan 2021, 13:30

indeed, T shirts are a wonderful resource. :lol: 8-)
my wood projects are here https://pbase.com/sunnybob
User avatar
sunnybob
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: 17 Aug 2020, 10:59
Location: Cyprus
Name:

Re: Shellac questions

Postby Blackswanwood » 03 Jan 2021, 14:03

Cabinetman wrote:That’s interesting Robert, – the baby oil bit, I have always used linseed oil which can build up and spoil the finish if you use more than a tiny dot. Is that the same with baby oil or is it better to use? Ian


I don’t know if it’s better Ian but I haven’t experienced any problems using it. I did feel quite self conscious when buying it though :o
Blackswanwood
Nordic Pine
 
Posts: 881
Joined: 27 Jun 2020, 20:24
Location: North Yorkshire
Name: Robert

Re: Shellac questions

Postby billw » 03 Jan 2021, 15:04

sunnybob wrote:Bill, I've just mixed up a small portion using your ratio (I used 6g to 50 ml meth, sorry, only pink available to me here). Its considerably thicker than I've been using, maybe as much as 4 times as strong. I wont be able to test it on a scrap piece till it completely dissolves.

Making the rubber, even a small one, is unlikely to work for me, I dont use it often enough and it looks like it would waste enormous amounts of shellac for me.

I can get by with soaking a very small square of cotton and swabbing the surface.

I always sand to 320 before applying any finish. I have tried sanding between coats with 600, and even as a last resort 1500, but for whatever reason, it never works for me and I always end up resanding all of it off back to 320.

Luckily I really dont need or want a french polished finish, just something that looks semi professional :lol: 8-)

Plagues notwithstanding, I am due to visit the UK at easter, does anyone know of a short course available for finishing? The closer to the west country the better.


I did the quick and easy method on my workbench, just used a cotton rag to apply the shellac and it worked just fine. I didn't bother sanding it down between the coats either and it still looks alright (to me).

A rubber is much better for finer surfaces as it just encourages a more consistent application rather than slapping a load down at the start and smearing it across the surface until you run out :lol:
billw
New Shoots
 
Posts: 128
Joined: 30 Dec 2020, 21:24
Location: Sutton Coldfield
Name: Bill


Return to Finishing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests