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A Great Sawstop Video

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A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 26 Feb 2021, 22:54

I happened across this video by that Katz-Moses guy which shows some great and unique footage of what happens during a contact with a Sawstop unit, the Dado-Stack was particularly spectacular.

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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Steve Maskery » 26 Feb 2021, 23:33

Yes, very impressive. But he is one more voice telling the world that Dado stacks are illegal in Europe. No, they are not.
It IS illegal to operate a TS, in a commercial environment, without a guard. And the blade must stop within 10 seconds of switchoff. These are the things that usually make the USE of Dado stacks illegal, it's not the stacks themselves.
A proper guard and pushsticks will ensure that you don't even get the nick, and you will save a fortune at the same time.
S
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 27 Feb 2021, 00:24

Steve Maskery wrote:But he is one more voice telling the world that Dado stacks are illegal in Europe. No, they are not.
It IS illegal to operate a TS, in a commercial environment, without a guard. And the blade must stop within 10 seconds of switchoff. These are the things that usually make the USE of Dado stacks illegal, it's not the stacks themselves.


Yes, I've also said this before and I was actually going to mention the comment he made but didn't bother to. Thing is, I cannot for the life of me find any actual proof anywhere that says that stacks are illegal in Europe other than loads of non-official sites and people saying they are, but on the flip side, I also can't find anything that's proof that they are indeed legal to use provided that proper guards are used and the legislation adhered to.

He also said that it was impressive that the force of the sudden stop was enough to break the brazing of the blades, I reckon it was the blades smashing into each other that broke the carbide off, not the G-force!

I personally think that dado stacks/trenching blades are a bit of an archaic bit of equipment, although quite flexible. The two-piece adjustable groovers with disposable carbides are just a revelation comparatively but they don't have the range of a blade stack (without buying a larger set), but are easier to pin to the saw shaft for a sub-ten-second stop time. Both are better than a wobble saw though :lol:

I think you can actually specify on Felder and Altendorf machines for a longer arbour than standard and they supply an adjustable groover to fit it, and I believe they've been doing that for a very long time now.

Perhaps that's a new video idea for you Steve "Debunking the Illegal Dado Stack Myth" :D
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Steve Maskery » 27 Feb 2021, 00:42

Trevanion wrote: I also can't find anything that's proof that they are indeed legal to use provided that proper guards are used and the legislation adhered to.

Well the general rule is that if it is not illegal it is legal.
Trevanion wrote:Perhaps that's a new video idea for you Steve "Debunking the Illegal Dado Stack Myth" :D

Now that is a very good idea!
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby novocaine » 27 Feb 2021, 09:33

Steve Maskery wrote:
Trevanion wrote: I also can't find anything that's proof that they are indeed legal to use provided that proper guards are used and the legislation adhered to.

Well the general rule is that if it is not illegal it is legal.

S


I tried that argument. Apparently "it might not be illegal but its still indecent" :shock:
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Cabinetman » 27 Feb 2021, 10:51

Saw one of those videos years ago, I’ve always been impressed but this was a step further, another confirmation that if you are going to do something stupid it would be a good idea to have them fitted, I always thought it wrecked the saw but obviously not. My fingers and hands have never yet after all these years been within at the least 2 inches and then it has been a deliberate and very careful thing. Now my push sticks are a different matter and they’re chewed to bits.
Did he say 67,000 people have had life changing injuries in a year? That really is a staggering amount. Ian
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Feb 2021, 11:04

Cabinetman wrote:Saw one of those videos years ago, I’ve always been impressed but this was a step further, another confirmation that if you are going to do something stupid it would be a good idea to have them fitted, I always thought it wrecked the saw but obviously not. My fingers and hands have never yet after all these years been within at the least 2 inches and then it has been a deliberate and very careful thing. Now my push sticks are a different matter and they’re chewed to bits.
Did he say 67,000 people have had life changing injuries in a year? That really is a staggering amount. Ian



It doesn't wreck the saw, it wrecks the aluminium capsule that the teeth bite into, and the firing mechanism. That is a consumable item and one time only use. They aren't cheap either, but cheaper than limbs...
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 27 Feb 2021, 11:08

Cabinetman wrote:Did he say 67,000 people have had life changing injuries in a year? That really is a staggering amount.


I can believe it, and that's probably just the USA numbers rather than world-wide. I witnessed a pretty bad table saw injury first-hand a couple of weeks ago, but I won't go into details for not wanting to put people off lunch.

TrimTheKing wrote:It doesn't wreck the saw, it wrecks the aluminium capsule that the teeth bite into, and the firing mechanism. That is a consumable item and one time only use. They aren't cheap either, but cheaper than limbs...


If I recall, SS will actually replace the cartridge FOC if they verify that it was indeed skin that set it off. I think a cartridge is about £50, so not really a massive amount of money but you've got to include the fact that you've probably totally wrecked a blade too which is another £50 or more (or less).

novocaine wrote:I tried that argument. Apparently "it might not be illegal but its still indecent" :shock:


Yeah, but we're talking about woodworking machinery 'ere, not cycling in the nude!
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Feb 2021, 11:12

Trevanion wrote:If I recall, SS will actually replace the cartridge FOC if they verify that it was indeed skin that set it off. I think a cartridge is about £50, so not really a massive amount of money but you've got to include the fact that you've probably totally wrecked a blade too which is another £50 or more (or less).


Ah okay, didn't realise that, that's a good marketing tool. Yeah as I say not cheap but not ridiculous, and much better than losing a digit or worse.

I know they have their critics but I'll go out there and say I'd have one tomorrow if I had the funds! The safety aspect has been proven so I'm not getting into a discussion with anyone about that ,but also having looked one over a few years ago the engineering is excellent. QC on them (admittedly at the time about 5 years ago) was immaculate, the accuracy was bang on and easily tweaked, they really are a very high quality product. They do come with an associated high price tag though.

They also look cool! :lol: :obscene-drinkingcheers:
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby AJB Temple » 27 Feb 2021, 11:28

I agree with Mark. I think the Sawstop is a no brainer for me, were I to be in the market again.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 27 Feb 2021, 18:14

I think their patent on the technology actually runs out fairly soon, so perhaps some manufacturers will come up with cheaper saws that use it. Bosch had a similar technology called the "REAXX" saw a couple of years ago which actually infringed Sawstops patents so they had to stop making it.

Felder have an alternative called the PCS system, which is only available on their top-of-the-line Format4 and Felder saws currently but will eventually be an option on the Hammer stuff.

I personally think it's the way forward and should become standard on all new saws, as a last-resort safety measure under good working practices.

I also think there's a system for bandsaws now in slaughterhouses that uses a glove detection system, if I remember correctly.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Woodbloke » 27 Feb 2021, 18:45

Steve Maskery wrote:Yes, very impressive. But he is one more voice telling the world that Dado stacks are illegal in Europe. No, they are not.
It IS illegal to operate a TS, in a commercial environment, without a guard. And the blade must stop within 10 seconds of switchoff. These are the things that usually make the USE of Dado stacks illegal, it's not the stacks themselves.
A proper guard and pushsticks will ensure that you don't even get the nick, and you will save a fortune at the same time.
S


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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby ScaredyCat » 27 Feb 2021, 18:57

For all these demonstrations, not one of them, including the manufacturer will put it to the test with a finger.

:eusa-whistle:
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Feb 2021, 19:17

ScaredyCat wrote:For all these demonstrations, not one of them, including the manufacturer will put it to the test with a finger.

:eusa-whistle:


Not quite true, Sawstop owner did a test with his own finger and there’s a video of it out there. He did move his finger veeeeeery slowly into the blade though. It worked though so the results would be the same as the hotdog.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 27 Feb 2021, 20:26

Trevanion wrote:I think you can actually specify on Felder and Altendorf machines for a longer arbour than standard and they supply an adjustable groover to fit it, and I believe they've been doing that for a very long time now.


Felder just posted this up, the most European of European saw makers saying that you can indeed Dado on their saws. :)

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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby droogs » 27 Feb 2021, 21:33

Bet it has to be special Felder dado blades and bits
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby ScaredyCat » 28 Feb 2021, 10:41

TrimTheKing wrote:
ScaredyCat wrote:For all these demonstrations, not one of them, including the manufacturer will put it to the test with a finger.

:eusa-whistle:


Not quite true, Sawstop owner did a test with his own finger and there’s a video of it out there. He did move his finger veeeeeery slowly into the blade though. It worked though so the results would be the same as the hotdog.


You're right.I stand corrected he did, it was slow but he did it.

Sawstop guy on discovery channel, the 'good part' starts at 3:57

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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Steve Maskery » 03 Mar 2021, 21:32

Trevanion wrote:Perhaps that's a new video idea for you Steve "Debunking the Illegal Dado Stack Myth" :D


Your wish, and all that...
Enjoy.

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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby 9fingers » 03 Mar 2021, 22:16

Very clearly put Steve.
I was intruiged that although we both have the same model of saw, mine came with a long and a short 30mm arbor wheresas your long arbor is a 5/8 one. Did you get a choice?
The Dado set they supplied me was 30mm bore and I think the arbor came in the dado set case not as part of the machine.
The saw itself has a CE mark (Chinese Export?) and I think to get the CE mark, the machine as supplied isn't able to take a dado. This maybe also a myth?

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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Steve Maskery » 03 Mar 2021, 22:25

9fingers wrote:Very clearly put Steve.
I was intruiged that although we both have the same model of saw, mine came with a long and a short 30mm arbor wheresas your long arbor is a 5/8 one. Did you get a choice?


Not as I recall, Bob. But the arbor definitely came with the machine rather than will the Dado stack. My Dado Stack was a Freud 5/8th. It was one of the things that got stolen. This set is the same, but with a 30mm bore, and I have reducers for it.

9fingers wrote:The saw itself has a CE mark (Chinese Export?) and I think to get the CE mark, the machine as supplied isn't able to take a dado. This maybe also a myth?


I don't know, Bob, but if you find out, let me know, I would be interested.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby ScaredyCat » 03 Mar 2021, 22:45

You might want to delete that comment by Moses White Steve..
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Trevanion » 03 Mar 2021, 23:29

Steve Maskery wrote:Your wish, and all that...
Enjoy.


Great video, Steve. You had me thinking you were going to cut to a paragraph when you said "This is what the actual regulations/legislation DOES say about dado sets" and then proceed to say "Nothing" after a long pause, perfect :lol:

One thing to note though, I assume it's the same for dado stacks as with any other tooling that it should be of the chip-limiting/anti-kickback type to conform to the regulations (I don't think many American-made ones are but CMT do a set that is which is available in the UK), but that's a minor point.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby Steve Maskery » 03 Mar 2021, 23:56

ScaredyCat wrote:You might want to delete that comment by Moses White Steve..


Blimey, they are quick off the mark aren't they? That's two of the buggers in the first hour.
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby droogs » 04 Mar 2021, 12:54

given it a like steve, let's see if we can get enough views and likes to get the info out there for you
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Re: A Great Sawstop Video

Postby wallace » 11 Mar 2021, 00:14

Is it true you cant use the saw stop on damp wood
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