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Insulate Britain

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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 29 Sep 2021, 18:54

Andyp wrote:.....My house is well insulated with 150mm of compressed foam on all walls and 200mm mineral wool in the loft.


That's an interesting combination, Andy. Your walls are way ahead of your loft in terms of thermal performance. The loft is a relatively easy DIY job, so your low hanging fruit would be an extra 100 or 150mm of insulation up there.

Double glazing could, of course, be upgraded to thicker or even triple glazed but again cost is prohibitive for short term payback.


I reckon you should pragmatically upgrade, simply by replacing any unit which fails with one of a higher quality (look for an inert gas fill and a low emissivity coating). Don't go taking out decent units before they fail.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 29 Sep 2021, 18:57

Mike G wrote:
Andyp wrote:........I can’t help thinking that a bit more effort could be made towards the renewable energy resources the UK has an abondance of.....


We've made massive strides forward on this. I believe we are way ahead of any targets we've set ourselves. Offshore wind has been a huge success story. This ought to be said more often and more loudly. We are actually, for our size, one of the world leaders in this.


Indeed Mike the UK is making the most of it's location and the length of it's coast. But is it making the most of all that water flowing through our rivers that a hundred years or so supported hundreds of watermills running factories as well as grinding flour. If those mills were replaced by mini hydro plants what could be achieved? I'd love to find scientific analysis for that one.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 29 Sep 2021, 18:59

Mike G wrote:
Andyp wrote:
Double glazing could, of course, be upgraded to thicker or even triple glazed but again cost is prohibitive for short term payback.


I reckon you should pragmatically upgrade, simply by replacing any unit which fails with one of a higher quality (look for an inert gas fill and a low emissivity coating). Don't go taking out decent units before they fail.


Not had one failure yet. They are in decent had wood frames too.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 29 Sep 2021, 19:01

Andyp wrote:......Small scale and larger scale hydro and tidal systems for example.


We haven't got a commercially available tidal system yet, although there are a couple in the final stages of development which will be in production very soon. Small scale hydro is fine for isolated buildings in upland areas, but are never going to make a major contribution. Large scale hydro involves dams, and dams are a nigtmare environmentally. It's one of my delights to watch the bloody things being demolished on Youtube, and I have campaigned successfully against new dam projects in Africa.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby novocaine » 29 Sep 2021, 19:14

Orkneys new tidal turbine is online. The issue they have now is no way to store excess energy, so they are prodcuing hydrogen with it using a set of PEM generators. The tidal unit in ireland has been there for yeara but it can only supply enough for the local village and it costs a butt ton to maintain.
Renewable energy is great, but its unreliable, but we are being promise fussion in 10 to 15 years so yey.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 29 Sep 2021, 19:51

Mike G wrote:
Andyp wrote:.....My house is well insulated with 150mm of compressed foam on all walls and 200mm mineral wool in the loft.


That's an interesting combination, Andy. Your walls are way ahead of your loft in terms of thermal performance. The loft is a relatively easy DIY job, so your low hanging fruit would be an extra 100 or 150mm of insulation up there.

.


There was 100mm up in the loft before we moved in. I added the second 100mm and since then we have not had use the double combination duvet just the 9 tog bit. 3.5 tog in summer. Just changed them last weekend.

As for the walls it is hard to know exactly what is there. I have drilled through the plasterboard and insulation to the block work so I know the depth. The stuff that comes out of the drill hole looks like compressed foam.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Cabinetman » 29 Sep 2021, 20:22

Many years ago on holiday in Greece I came up with a way of using the heat from the Sun to push seawater uphill where it would then run downhill producing electricity and also condensing to produce fresh water for agriculture. I experimented when I got home for a short while and from a 3°C raise I got water to go 14 feet higher than it started, and then I lost interest. It was a pretty clunky system. It’s always been the same with my inventions once I’ve proved the point I can’t be bothered with it anymore. Ian
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 29 Sep 2021, 20:28

novocaine wrote:.....we are being promise fussion in 10 to 15 years so yey.


............and have been for the last 40 years. It's a bit like Leo's "Tally Ho will be finished in 2 years...."

Saying all that, there are some huge strides being made in fusion right now.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby novocaine » 29 Sep 2021, 20:43

Apparantly we are closer to fusion now than we were then. We've got models of it and everything.

Uk are somethingike 3 or 4 in the offshore wind world (used to be g7 but now we call it g+). We are leading the way in innovation though. Floating turbines are coming.
Taiwan are catching up quickly. But they are using our tech with the siemens 85m units. The new GE halide x turbine is amazing to. But the infrastructure around them is really hard to install and maintain (although i th ink everyone should do their offshore egress training, its frwat fun, right up their with the bosiet).
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby PAC1 » 30 Sep 2021, 05:38

novocaine wrote:Apparantly we are closer to fusion now than we were then. We've got models of it and everything.
.

And the UK are world leaders in the research at Culham
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 30 Sep 2021, 07:03

Mike G wrote:
Andyp wrote:......Small scale and larger scale hydro and tidal systems for example.


We haven't got a commercially available tidal system yet, although there are a couple in the final stages of development which will be in production very soon. Small scale hydro is fine for isolated buildings in upland areas, but are never going to make a major contribution. Large scale hydro involves dams, and dams are a nigtmare environmentally. It's one of my delights to watch the bloody things being demolished on Youtube, and I have campaigned successfully against new dam projects in Africa.



Mike, I am sure that there are some very environmentally damaging hydro projects about. On a slightly flippant note it was just as well, perhaps, that the victorians ran rough shod over environmental concerns to provide fresh water to towns and cities in the north if England. Would dropping small scale electricity generating turbines into that existing infrastructure be so costly? Could the principles of marginal gains be used for small scale electricity consumption?
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 30 Sep 2021, 08:36

Andyp wrote:.....Mike, I am sure that there are some very environmentally damaging hydro projects about....


There are, but the types I am talking about are generators sitting on the sea bed without any need for a barrage. They have a pretty minimal impact locally, although there is always the issue of the cables coming ashore.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 30 Sep 2021, 08:44

I can't understand why tidal hasn't taken off in the way wind has in the UK, but then I'm biased as a friend of mine has been working in this area for years. Worth going to the link below and watching the CGI video in using wind and wave together for power generation.

https://www.marinepowersystems.co.uk/
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Tiresias » 01 Oct 2021, 16:11

AndyT wrote:I think this thread is nicely exposing the enormity of the challenge ahead of us. Even among this small group of well-informed, capable people, it's really difficult to fit enough insulation into an old building. Adding a ventilation and heat recovery system is even more daunting.
Compare this with the relative ease of swapping out a gas boiler. For that, we have a mature market of manufacturers and a wide pool of qualified installers.
For installation of heat pumps and insulation, there's clearly huge potential for messing things up because of insufficient knowledge or experience of how buildings work. Then think about the number of old, poorly performing houses in the country, and the proportion occupied by people without any cash to invest in them...


AndyT. If you are interested in the effect of energy efficiency measures on period properties you may care to look at some of the technical papers here:

www.historicenvironment.scot/archives-a ... on_type=30

Papers 16 and 17 IIRC (but many others are relevant). Done from the view point of Green Deal, but the figures can enable you to take a view on payback periods.

Oh, and many of the authors, poor dears, are architects, pretending to be academics. Not a happy combination.

Not that I have anything against architects as a class. Just some I have had to deal with. Or indeed academics. But their English can be tortuous.

My conclusion on this is simply that most suggested measures are impossible for many, if not most, period properties under current legislative frameworks (all my properties are Category A or B (your Grades I and II). To take an example: external insulation of walls – not possible (mmm, over cladding polished ashlar stone work. The New Town conservation bodies would love that); internal insulation – what, over original plasterwork, cornices and mouldings; again a non-starter. The only thing they seem to suggest is blowing beads or cellulose into the cavity between the lathe and plaster and the wall. Apart from the disruption (all original skirtings off, holes punched every metre through the plaster work, no certainty of complete coverage) it is suspiciously like cavity wall insulation. And we know how good that was. Try and find a reliable contractor that will give you a meaningful guarantee to do this…

And I will refrain from having a rant about retro fitting dg into original sashes.

And if you want a further hoot at the stupidity of current thinking, try The Energy Efficiency (Domestic Private Rented Property) (Scotland) Regulations 2020. I think you have much the same thing in England (The Energy Efficiency (Private Rented Property) (England and Wales) Regulations 2015? – but that is far less Draconian than our tartan version). A more egregious example of poorly thought out legislation would be hard to find as far as it might affect period properties, which, generally in the form of tenement blocks, are the dominant built form in the centres of Edinburgh and Glasgow.

The pay back period on most of these proposals is so long as to be ridiculous in my circumstances. Having shutters and using them. Turning the heating down when you don’t need it. That works. But it doesn’t show up on their (rather discredited) EPC models.

Phew. Now that feels better. Apologies for the jeremiad.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby podengo » 02 Oct 2021, 22:11

The UK has masses of poor or mediocre levels of thermal insulation in its housing stock.

Most people I would guess live in houses built between say Mid Victorian to 1980s builds -the period when suburban Britain was built.

Raising a 1980s house to passiv haas standard would cost a huge amount: rip up floors, EWI or internal, new windows, redo roof.

Costs Id guess would be £50k+


I really don’t know the solution
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Woodster » 03 Oct 2021, 12:52

On the subject of tidal power, I read about the development of this some time ago.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/28/worlds- ... grid-.html

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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Lurker » 03 Oct 2021, 13:13

podengo wrote:The UK has masses of poor or mediocre levels of thermal insulation in its housing stock.

Most people I would guess live in houses built between say Mid Victorian to 1980s builds -the period when suburban Britain was built.

Raising a 1980s house to passiv haas standard would cost a huge amount: rip up floors, EWI or internal, new windows, redo roof.

Costs Id guess would be £50k+


I really don’t know the solution


Quite.
The financial payback would be beyond the lifetime of any occupier.
And the carbon payback would be nearly as long.

I have yet to see a costed carbon payback of the current batch of renewals, being cynical I suspect they are much longer than most people think.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Cabinetman » 03 Oct 2021, 19:00

A friend of mine builds houses in a big way. About 10 years ago when he was being told he had to build houses in a carbon neutral way by such and such a year, asked the powers that be for help defining that, he did go as high up the ladder as he could, lots of buck passing and nothing of any use came back at all. It isn’t always fair to blame the builders, they all have to work the same or else be priced out of the market – they need minimum standards to work to. Ian
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Artiglio » 03 Oct 2021, 21:55

Cabinet man,

The government did draw up a policy of “sustainability codes” for house building and implementation dates , but (alledgedly) the house builders lobbied against it saying that there was not the skilled workforce to implement it and that the number of houses built would be severely curtailed and the cost of the homes that were built would be substantially increased. The plans were shelved.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... hguide.pdf
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby AJB Temple » 03 Oct 2021, 22:23

I have no published source, but I can understand where the replacement idea may have come from. I've seen houses where they had clearly installed loft insulation, but it has broken down over time and become powdery.

Source: my house where we currently live! We vacuumed the lot out and replaced with high quality mineral wool at 18" thick. I would be amazed if that degrades at all over the next few decades.

Wool fleece is apparently virtually worthless as fresh cut bales and I would be attracted to that as a natural insulation material.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2021, 07:25

Cabinetman wrote:..... It isn’t always fair to blame the builders, they all have to work the same or else be priced out of the market – they need minimum standards to work to. Ian


Very true, but of course, there are minimum standards to work to: the Building Regulations. These are actually pretty good these days.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Lurker » 04 Oct 2021, 08:21

I thought it was common knowledge that wool fleece insulation results in moth infestations.
Not only does this sound right to me, but it reinforces my belief in the law of unintended consequences.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2021, 08:51

Wool insulation suffered from poor quality control a few years ago, and the insect repellant in some batches was sub-standard as a result. This led to moth infestations, as Jim said. The National Trust had to rip it out of half a dozen buildings.

Scurrilously, the supplier went bankrupt immediately, and opened again the following day under a slightly altered name. Since then, as far as I know, there have been no further issues. Having said that, again as far as I know, wool is only certificated for use in lofts. It can't be used in walls, unless something has changed recently. This rather limits its usefulness. I would love wool to be the answer to all our insulating needs. It's just a such a brilliant idea, with low embodied energy, and very little manufacturing input. However, with its limitations on use and its dubious history, I'm afraid I'm not prepared to take the risk of specifying or using it.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby AndyT » 04 Oct 2021, 14:43

I recently came across this document. It's a 68 page report from Historic England entitled "There's no place like old homes."


https://historicengland.org.uk/content/ ... ce-carbon/

It's too long to summarize here but might be of interest to reassure us that some building professionals do know what needs to be done and the scale of the challenge. It confirms that we can hugely improve the performance of older property, and avoid the embodied CO2 in demolition and replacement, but it needs skill and experience.

This paragraph stood out, going back to Lurker's original post:

POOR RETROFIT AND MALADAPTATION- INSULATION
Solid wall heat losses and the potential for energy saving

We are seeing an alarming increase in problems with old buildings which people are being persuaded to insulate. In theory, insulating a building sounds good. In practise, the moment you put something onto a wall, you prevent it breathing. You shift the Dew Point within the wall. You create condensation. You create a damp wall. For years they have been tanking and re-plastering in impervious materials to trap moisture. This then transmits heat very quickly, cooling the wall. Damp walls are cold walls. Damp houses are cold houses. It thus follows that internally insulating a house is fraught with danger. You need to really know what you are doing if it is to succeed – and there is very little research available to support internal insulation. If in doubt, don’t do it.
External insulation is a different kettle of fish.
The wall of your house is kept warm – so the dewpoint shifts to the outside. This means that moist warm air diffuses through the fabric, and can condense near the outside of the wall, between it, and the insulation. We’ve seen this a great deal now. The problem then is that water builds up into the wall, and eventually the base of your wall just gets wet and cold. You then start seeing ‘damp’ symptoms internally – mould, plaster coming off – and of course the house loses heat quickly through the wet wall.
The end result is a colder and damper house than you started with. If there is a ventilated cavity between the insulation and wall, you may avoid the problem.
Source: BRE 2016

How are we all doing on the confidence-to-despair spectrum?
Can we fix a million old buildings a year?
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby AJB Temple » 04 Oct 2021, 16:33

Interesting document Andy. Thanks for posting.

It is interesting to me at least, that a lot of the new builds you see on TV (grand designs et al) use pre-fab timber frame construction of engineered interlocking boards sandwiching thick foam. All pre-fab as far as possible. This creates most of the structure and is then merely skin and clad and (if desired) dry walled. When you go to the building shows and exhibitions, you see variants of these systems, including the interlocking foam block building system (as for example used on Sarah Beeny's event large new house build on TV). We are moving away very rapidly it seems from traditional brick and block builds. We don't appear to have embraced hollow clay bricks either as used very extensively in mainland Europe.

We have a plan to re-clad our house. Quite a bit of the outdoors is gradually becoming indoors on the ground floor, which makes insulation improvement a lot easier, but dealing with old buildings is very challenging if you want to beef up the insulation a lot. If we move again (which I hope we will) it will be a passive new build. Probably not in the UK.
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