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Insulate Britain

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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 04 Oct 2021, 20:32

That looks interesting document, old buildings need to breath and a lot of ill thought out insulation causes issues.

I’m not sure I agree about the use of off site panels, 3 or 4 bigish estates being built round here all the same old brick cavity wall. We shouldn’t be building any houses like this, have thought so for years. They put a solar panel or heat pipes on the roof to make it look green but that doesn’t solve the inefficiencies in the build.

For anyone of a deep green bent, a friend from uni is a natural builder and does a podcast which covers loads of interesting topics related to green building.

https://www.buildingsustainabilitypodcast.com/
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2021, 21:19

MattS wrote:That looks interesting document, old buildings need to breath and a lot of ill thought out insulation causes issues......


Careful. It's not the insulation that causes issues. So long as the insulation is of roughly the same vapour permeability as the fabric of the building, it doesn't cause any issue at all. There is a big difference between insulating and draught proofing, and removing ventilation sources is one of the big problems for old buildings. You can have a very well insulated building which is leaky and draughty, but because insulation is put in at the same time as other works are done, it somehow gets the blame for all the resulting ills caused by other materials. Most insulation doesn't alter "breathability" (which is short hand for vapour permeability), however much of the stuff you use. The huge, huge culprits are modern impervious materials such as cement render, gypsum plaster, modern paint, OSB and ply, and concrete. Insulation, so long as it isn't the impervious stuff such as Celotex, makes no (negative) difference to the life expectancy of a building.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 04 Oct 2021, 22:36

Can we please rename this thread away from those posing prats who wouldn't let ambulances through? Police nowhere in sight. Fortunately some car drivers dragged these egotistical idiots on a vanity project out of the way.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 05 Oct 2021, 07:44

Stand corrected, you are right Mike - I knew what I meant, but my words weren’t right I meant retrofitting of insulation. But as you say it’s the impervious materials often used on the surface which cause the issue.

Roger not saying I condone what they do but can you see it from their perspective? They are worried and brave enough to protest in a way which hugely impacts their lives. Without getting too close to political discussion there is debate about whether a protest should be noisy and disruptive. If it isn’t would it work?!
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Lurker » 05 Oct 2021, 08:35

RogerS wrote:Can we please rename this thread away from those posing prats who wouldn't let ambulances through? Police nowhere in sight. Fortunately some car drivers dragged these egotistical idiots on a vanity project out of the way.


My initial intention was that these prats think the answer is simple and wanted to explore the practical issues.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2021, 09:08

MattS wrote:....
Roger not saying I condone what they do but can you see it from their perspective? They are worried and brave enough to protest in a way which hugely impacts their lives. Without getting too close to political discussion there is debate about whether a protest should be noisy and disruptive. If it isn’t would it work?!


Of course I can see it from their perspective but, come on, do you really think that this government or any government is going to give way or show any sort of indication that they will do 'X' because of what protester 'Z' has done ? Were they to do so then any Tom Dick or Harry would start having a protest. So no matter how noisy or disruptive it is, it is futile. It really is just a vanity project to think that they are actually going to influence. All that they are doing is creating more and more pollution because if the queues of vehicles, possible deaths and/or traumas especially in not letting ambulances through. People missing flights, weddings, funerals, urgent hospital appointments.

Insulting Reckers and their partners in crime Expulsion Revulsion are selfish, naive and vain. There are better more effective ways to protest without messing up the lives of others. Have they actually put forward any concrete plans about how they are proposing to insulate the old houses that we have in the UK ? A detailed way forward ? Mmmm? Thought not. Posturing chancers.

I am surprised just how patient UK drivers are. If they had tried these antics in a country such as France they'd have been lynched by now.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Oct 2021, 09:32

However, despite the protests being doomed to failure, they have kick started the debate at a timely point when energy costs are rising sharply.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby AndyT » 05 Oct 2021, 09:34

I also think it's very unlikely that our current government would do what a protest group demand, as a direct response to the demand. But that's not the only way protest can work. It also gets the quiet ones thinking, those who care about their own property and want to improve it.

Would we be having this reasoned discussion on here, if IB hadn't made the issue topical?

As to whether the Insulate Britain group have any concrete plans, it only took me a few seconds to find their campaign website, with a link to this document:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jt5FI- ... n8Aea/view

I've not read all of it yet but at first glance it does seem to draw on existing technical research and case studies and say that insulating old properties can be done but needs to be properly done to avoid problems of ventilation etc.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2021, 09:52

AndyT wrote:.....
As to whether the Insulate Britain group have any concrete plans, it only took me a few seconds to find their campaign website, with a link to this document:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jt5FI- ... n8Aea/view

I've not read all of it yet but at first glance it does seem to draw on existing technical research and case studies and say that insulating old properties can be done but needs to be properly done to avoid problems of ventilation etc.


All it does, Andy, is produce snippets and quotes from other sources. No concrete plans whatsoever.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2021, 09:57

AJB Temple wrote:However, despite the protests being doomed to failure, they have kick started the debate at a timely point when energy costs are rising sharply.


I'm not sure that they have, Adrian.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 05 Oct 2021, 10:11

As to whether or not they would get away traffic disruption here.

Yes they would. The yellow vest protests or a year or so back caused our kids and many others to be late for school many times and we were late for out patients appointments at least once
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Woodster » 05 Oct 2021, 12:14

AJB Temple wrote:However, despite the protests being doomed to failure, they have kick started the debate at a timely point when energy costs are rising sharply.


You may be right. Governments can’t accede immediately without encouraging others. That doesn’t mean they don’t take any notice altogether though.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 05 Oct 2021, 15:14

I think that IB and XR have a clear goals, they may not have concrete plans but isn't that the governments job to pull on the best resources and come up with a plan? These groups for me are just trying to hold them accountable for their inaction.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2021, 19:05

MattS wrote:I think that IB and XR have a clear goals, they may not have concrete plans but isn't that the governments job to pull on the best resources and come up with a plan? These groups for me are just trying to hold them accountable for their inaction.


Does that justify blocking ambulances ? Possibly a blue-light job ?

Or you missing your flight ?

or your chemotherapy slot?

Perhaps that poor guy's wife who suffered a stroke might not now be paralysed for life thanks to those idiots.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Gill » 05 Oct 2021, 20:18

Shouldn't these protestors be asking themselves why Wickes or B&Q haven't approached them with a sponsorship deal?
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 05 Oct 2021, 20:23

RogerS wrote:
MattS wrote:I think that IB and XR have a clear goals, they may not have concrete plans but isn't that the governments job to pull on the best resources and come up with a plan? These groups for me are just trying to hold them accountable for their inaction.


Does that justify blocking ambulances ? Possibly a blue-light job ?

Or you missing your flight ?

or your chemotherapy slot?

Perhaps that poor guy's wife who suffered a stroke might not now be paralysed for life thanks to those idiots.


Well XR have made clear today that they do not block ambulances. As to missing flights, the chart on page 13 of the document Andy linked to caught my eye. We all know aviation is terrible for the planet but was surprised to see as a sector it’s contribution has increased 77% since 1990!
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 05 Oct 2021, 21:09

MattS wrote:
RogerS wrote:
MattS wrote:I think that IB and XR have a clear goals, they may not have concrete plans but isn't that the governments job to pull on the best resources and come up with a plan? These groups for me are just trying to hold them accountable for their inaction.


Does that justify blocking ambulances ? Possibly a blue-light job ?

Or you missing your flight ?

or your chemotherapy slot?

Perhaps that poor guy's wife who suffered a stroke might not now be paralysed for life thanks to those idiots.


Well XR have made clear today that they do not block ambulances. As to missing flights, the chart on page 13 of the document Andy linked to caught my eye. We all know aviation is terrible for the planet but was surprised to see as a sector it’s contribution has increased 77% since 1990!


And ? Your point ? How do you think all the cr*p you buy from China arrives? Not all by boat. Or maybe people shouldn't go abroad on holiday ?

How much has car travel increased since 1990? And can I have a reference please to your aviation quote.

So XR don't block ambulances. Woop-dee-do. Now aren't they the little goodie-two-shoes ?

If I sound a little harsh then my apologies but when you've had your electricity cut off for the third time by an ar**hole farmer, see your wife gradually getting more and more ill because of it and SFA help from the police.....
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby MattS » 06 Oct 2021, 07:00

Take a look at the document, surface transport up 2%.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Dr.Al » 06 Oct 2021, 07:41

MattS wrote:Well XR have made clear today that they do not block ambulances.


They may not block ambulances when the ambulances get to the road blocks, but they cause huge tailbacks that the ambulances have to fight through and that will take a lot longer than it would otherwise take.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby novocaine » 06 Oct 2021, 11:54

smashing rocks together to make stuff burn.

sounds like something for caveman right?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58602159

oh how far we have come a a species. if a more advanced civilization is watching on from the star I hope they aren't laughing to hard at primitive man and his minute advancements from big rock to fast rock. ;)
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby thetyreman » 06 Oct 2021, 12:06

not a fan of insulate Britain at all, they come across as childish, narcissistic and mostly middle aged blokes having a tantrum, it is ugly, stupid and I'd go as far as saying right wing, they need to think of a more intelligent way of getting their point across without causing so much disruption and killing people in the process.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Dr.Al » 06 Oct 2021, 12:27

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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby novocaine » 20 Oct 2021, 09:10

heres all the tips you need to save energy folks, get on with it. ;)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58967580

don't forget to block up all though nasty leaky gaps, fill your cavities with soggy mush and replace your boiler for a £16k heat pump with no service interval identified.
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby RogerS » 20 Oct 2021, 09:19

I love this sentence

Windows for a semi-detached house that are A-rated, taking in as much heat as they let out, would cost about £4,250, with energy bill savings of about £75 per year.

Confirming what we've known all along that the cost-benefit case for double-glazing is pretty dire.

The other thing that they've skated over is that, with a heat pump, you will need to put in either underfloor heating or replace all your radiators with much larger ones! They leave the cost of that out of the figures !
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Re: Insulate Britain

Postby Andyp » 20 Oct 2021, 09:31

My house has a 12m south facing living/dining room. The heat gain from the sun is significant. One double window and two glass double doors all double glazed but 20 years old. Two bedrooms above.
Walls are made from concrete building blocks, rendered. There is, I guess, between 6” & 8” of compressed foam on the inside with plasterboard on top.
The ceiling above and floor below are both, as far as I can see, concrete block and beam with a screed on top.

I am not about to but if I were to add insulation to the outside wouldn’t that reduce the solar heat gain I get at the moment? Does the concrete block wall act as a heat sink or is any benefit of that reduced by the insulation on the inside?

Just curious.
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