It is currently 28 Mar 2024, 16:41

First drive of an electric car

Hang up your Chisels and Plane blades and take a load off with a recently turned goblet of your favourite poison, in the lounge of our Gentlemen's (and ladies) Club.

First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 09:53

Garage courtesy car. Had the option of either electric or petrol so thought, why not.

Seat Mii. First impressions ? Bland, just about sums it up. If I wanted to drive around in a slipper then the Seat would fit the bill.

I found the ride very twitchy but that could equally be a result of the small wheels and poor tyres. Driving in B (regenerative mode) gave me a few brown-trouser moments, for example, when going round a bend and not particularly fast down a hill the car couldn't seem to make its mind up if it was applying power or regenerating and I found the front losing grip at times.

Range anxiety really crept in as it was full charge and showed the range of 74 miles :o That wouldn't even get me to Hexham and back probably.

One question....heating? Heated screens etc Surely that must hammer the battery ?

Conclusion - electric cars are not for me.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 05 Nov 2021, 10:49

I have a 65 plate Skoda Citigo Roger which we tow behind the motorhome for use on holiday, it's the petrol version of the Seat Mii and VW UP and it definitely isn't twitchy. Yeah small wheels not good over potholes, tiny engine but drives remarkably well for a small car, if full range of an electric version is 74 miles it wouldn't be my choice as a replacement for that either.
I would suspect that larger cars of similar size to your Q3 might be a bit more refined though and I'll be hanging on to my GLC for a while yet until they evolve and prices come down significantly.
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 10:54

I really do love these per reviewed, exhaustive and in depth tests of new technology, from open minded people :lol:
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 10:55

That's interesting, lons. So the twitchiness ...and it's definitely there when going down hill round curves on slightly damp road..... is down to the electric version of the car.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 10:56

AJB Temple wrote:I really do love these per reviewed, exhaustive and in depth tests of new technology, from open minded people :lol:


I did say 'FIRST impressions', Adrian. And we can't all afford Tesla's.
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby novocaine » 05 Nov 2021, 11:08

It's a loan car, it's been driven hard and put away very very wet for it's entire life. there is every chance the tracking is well out. it will be on the cheapest tyres known to man too. it's also going to feel very very different to something like a Q3, it's half the size and weight for a start, so there maybe a bit of a mental difference too (no offence Roger, we all do it).

having said that, all ICE platforms that are being used for EV are weird as the weight distribution doesn't match the original design intent (the up, mii and citigo are typical VAG design, with the lupo floor pan from the 00s modified to suit a different body shape) so there is every chance it is twitchy because of the EV systems.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 11:12

novocaine wrote:.... so there is every chance it is twitchy because of the EV systems.


That's also my conclusion
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Chris152 » 05 Nov 2021, 11:13

Before I started driving a van, I used to have Volvos and take them to a local independent Volvo garage who would loan me a Chevrolet bubble car for the day. Tiny everything, I actually felt scared driving it after my relatively large car. I used to sing that American Pie song to keep my spirits up, but even that didn't work. Apparently lots of people used to feel just the same, and they now have a Volvo courtesy car. So it may well be that it's just completely different to what you're used to, as others have said.
Chris152
Sapling
 
Posts: 294
Joined: 02 May 2021, 09:18
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 11:32

Twitchyness in vehicles can be caused by tyres. Both make and pressures. I would probably start with that.

I don't know anything about SEAT cars, but if you look at electric vehicles that have been designed as such, rather than converted from a fossil fuel bodyshell layout, then two things are notable: a) the battery cells are set very low and contained within the chassis, and b) they are distributed fairly evenly over the floorpan.

This results in a low centre of gravity (close to hub centre level) and generally very neutral handling (especially if the vehicle has a motor at each wheel). To me this results in a rather dull drive, but the same can be said of many conventional 4 wheel drive vehicles which have a rear wheel drive alternative (eg Porsche 911). The 4WD had a lot of grip, but was dull to drive as it understeered like mad compared with the RWD which has more thrilling handling. (I've owned both).

I've driven a lot of electric cars and I've yet to drive one that I think is "fun" in the same way that a good, quick petrol car is to drive. So I just accept that the experience is a different one and that trade off's are made.

Electric cars will take over, but we are still in the early days of development. Self driving cars are clearly the way forward for efficient transport operations (safer, quicker, cheaper eventually), but in my view and experience, the technology is embryonic at present and prone to silly errors such as false hazard identification.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby novocaine » 05 Nov 2021, 11:58

AJB Temple wrote:Twitchyness in vehicles can be caused by tyres. Both make and pressures. I would probably start with that.

I don't know anything about SEAT cars, but if you look at electric vehicles that have been designed as such, rather than converted from a fossil fuel bodyshell layout, then two things are notable: a) the battery cells are set very low and contained within the chassis, and b) they are distributed fairly evenly over the floorpan.

This results in a low centre of gravity (close to hub centre level) and generally very neutral handling (especially if the vehicle has a motor at each wheel). To me this results in a rather dull drive, but the same can be said of many conventional 4 wheel drive vehicles which have a rear wheel drive alternative (eg Porsche 911). The 4WD had a lot of grip, but was dull to drive as it understeered like mad compared with the RWD which has more thrilling handling. (I've owned both).

I've driven a lot of electric cars and I've yet to drive one that I think is "fun" in the same way that a good, quick petrol car is to drive. So I just accept that the experience is a different one and that trade off's are made.

Electric cars will take over, but we are still in the early days of development. Self driving cars are clearly the way forward for efficient transport operations (safer, quicker, cheaper eventually), but in my view and experience, the technology is embryonic at present and prone to silly errors such as false hazard identification.

whilst lowering the COG is of benefit, the bigger issues, especially with dynamic stability is the change in weight distribution from predominately front wheel to a more 50/50 distribution.
There are 2 things at play here, first in the brake bias, with typical split on a front wheel drive car being around the 80/20 bias towards the front wheels. having the weight predominately over the rear axle increase the leverage turning round the front axle under braking or during regeneration cycles (which is really just eddie current braking) This is often counteracted by altering the brake bias to 60/40 ish, putting more weight on the rear suspension under braking, which leads to the next issue, which is around wheel base and rear axle path under braking.
the suspension is designed around a front wheel excess, typically with far less complex rear systems that often means a non liner wheel movement in a axial plane (push down and the wheel moves in a arc towards the front of the vehicle, effectively shortening the wheel base, often by up to 30mm) whilst front suspension typically moves in a arc in a transverse plane. Having this weight act on the rear to a larger extend can result in make a car want to understeer, which is felt as twitchy handling.

this is somewhat simplified and there is no one element of geometry in the vehicle that can be pointed to causing "twitchy" handling, but the two above are often considered as having a large influence on dynamic stability.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 12:02

novocaine wrote:
AJB Temple wrote:Twitchyness in vehicles can be caused by tyres. Both make and pressures. I would probably start with that.

I don't know anything about SEAT cars, but if you look at electric vehicles that have been designed as such, rather than converted from a fossil fuel bodyshell layout, then two things are notable: a) the battery cells are set very low and contained within the chassis, and b) they are distributed fairly evenly over the floorpan.

This results in a low centre of gravity (close to hub centre level) and generally very neutral handling (especially if the vehicle has a motor at each wheel). To me this results in a rather dull drive, but the same can be said of many conventional 4 wheel drive vehicles which have a rear wheel drive alternative (eg Porsche 911). The 4WD had a lot of grip, but was dull to drive as it understeered like mad compared with the RWD which has more thrilling handling. (I've owned both).

I've driven a lot of electric cars and I've yet to drive one that I think is "fun" in the same way that a good, quick petrol car is to drive. So I just accept that the experience is a different one and that trade off's are made.

Electric cars will take over, but we are still in the early days of development. Self driving cars are clearly the way forward for efficient transport operations (safer, quicker, cheaper eventually), but in my view and experience, the technology is embryonic at present and prone to silly errors such as false hazard identification.

whilst lowering the COG is of benefit, the bigger issues, especially with dynamic stability is the change in weight distribution from predominately front wheel to a more 50/50 distribution.
There are 2 things at play here, first in the brake bias, with typical split on a front wheel drive car being around the 80/20 bias towards the front wheels. having the weight predominately over the rear axle increase the leverage turning round the front axle under braking or during regeneration cycles (which is really just eddie current braking) This is often counteracted by altering the brake bias to 60/40 ish, putting more weight on the rear suspension under braking, which leads to the next issue, which is around wheel base and rear axle path under braking.
the suspension is designed around a front wheel excess, typically with far less complex rear systems that often means a non liner wheel movement in a axial plane (push down and the wheel moves in a arc towards the front of the vehicle, effectively shortening the wheel base, often by up to 30mm) whilst front suspension typically moves in a arc in a transverse plane. Having this weight act on the rear to a larger extend can result in make a car want to understeer, which is felt as twitchy handling.

this is somewhat simplified and there is no one element of geometry in the vehicle that can be pointed to causing "twitchy" handling, but the two above are often considered as having a large influence on dynamic stability.


:text-goodpost:
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 05 Nov 2021, 12:05

Electric cars will take over, but we are still in the early days of development. Self driving cars are clearly the way forward for efficient transport operations (safer, quicker, cheaper eventually), but in my view and experience, the technology is embryonic at present and prone to silly errors such as false hazard identification.


My thinking exactly (although I'm far from convinced about self driving cars as yet), and the reason I won't be changing for some time and until prices are far more realistic for a medium/large size car. I haven't driven an electric version of the little car I own but my assessment of that is from direct experience and I certainly do not think I have a closed mind, I will buy electric but when the time is right for me to do so and that is not yet. I looked very hard at the electric Mini when I changed my wife's a year ago and the figures just didn't stack up, they still don't! So ended up buying a far better equipped petrol for nearly £10k less after discounts, to put that into perspective, the electric version would have been nearly 40% more expensive for less specification and I wouldn't get that back over the time we owned the car given low mileage.

I really do love these per reviewed, exhaustive and in depth tests of new technology, from open minded people

Have you driven an UP/Mii/Citigo whether petrol or electric Adrian?
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Nov 2021, 12:44

I saw this recently.

757CEC6A-6065-4E4B-80E0-A6A8ADB4C1A3.jpeg
(173.53 KiB)


Of course, these are folks choosing their own new car. Many of the courtesy cars I’ve driven have been pants.

What’s gone wrong with your car this time Roger, more suspension problems? :lol:
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby novocaine » 05 Nov 2021, 13:00

I sound like a detractor of EV.
the truth couldn't be more wrong, I am very much in favour of it, once the technology is figured out and I can afford one, which isn't now.
simply put, if it wasn't for a billionaire deciding to play at being a car maker we wouldn't be at the stage we are now, which still isn't complete, but we are much much further along the path than if it was left to car makers (who have no real reason to try to do it until recently and certainly no real insensitive to do it until someone showed them it would make money).
I think we have 15 years before the technology for batteries really starts to find it's feet, and hopefully it won't involve strip mining tonnes of minerals as it does now, in the meantime, there is hydrogen.
Carbon fibre is just corduroy for cars.
novocaine
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2560
Joined: 26 Nov 2020, 10:37
Name: Dave

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Andyp » 05 Nov 2021, 13:19

With two 7 year old cars which are not yet costing me more than annual servicing I am reluctant to even think about an EV.
The Hyundai i10 would be the easiest to replace with electric as it rarely does more than 50 ks in a day. We have plenty of space inside and out to charge vehicles.
How the governments will incentivise all those car owners who do not have off street parking, to go electric, is yet to be seen and to me is the biggest challenge to EV dominance on our roads.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
Andy
User avatar
Andyp
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 07:05
Location: 14860 Normandy, France
Name: Andy

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 13:57

From Lons

Have you driven an UP/Mii/Citigo whether petrol or electric Adrian?

Indeed I have. Both petrol and electric. I've driven a lot of short wheelbase small cars usually as hire vehicles in the Netherlands as it happens. Not sure they are comparable with much larger and heavier cars in terms of driving experience. We recently bought a Fiat 500 (actually an 800cc twin turbo) for my son's girlfriend. She's tiny and loves it. I was less enamoured but it's not for me.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Nov 2021, 14:15

novocaine wrote:I sound like a detractor of EV.
the truth couldn't be more wrong, I am very much in favour of it, once the technology is figured out and I can afford one, which isn't now.
simply put, if it wasn't for a billionaire deciding to play at being a car maker we wouldn't be at the stage we are now, which still isn't complete, but we are much much further along the path than if it was left to car makers (who have no real reason to try to do it until recently and certainly no real insensitive to do it until someone showed them it would make money).
I think we have 15 years before the technology for batteries really starts to find it's feet, and hopefully it won't involve strip mining tonnes of minerals as it does now, in the meantime, there is hydrogen.


Agreed. I don’t want to spend the money required to get an EV at the moment but I am looking forward to getting one.

Two things I read just recently which were of interest to me:

Legislation from the EU (which the UK has largely adopted as well) means that it will be virtually impossible for car makers to meet CO2 emission standards and that fines imposed on car makers are likely to reach €22 Billion. This is of course unsustainable. The conclusion in the article said car makers have no choice but to sell ever increasing numbers of EV’s to survive.

The other interesting point was that EV’s require six times fewer parts than a combustion car. Predictions related to this include lower selling price of EV’s and lots of job losses, particularly in Germany where it takes twice a many workers to produce a car compared with say Japan. We shall see … ;)

I’d like one of these please when the price comes down a bit. Or maybe a Mustang. :D

9B681F00-2F53-402F-AD7C-ED787DEDAAEC.jpeg
(70.01 KiB)
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 14:46

The fewer parts thing is very interesting.

I think this is going to lead to a dramatic reduction in garage repair and servicing shops before long. My long term experience of a couple of EVs is that 99% of all servicing and checks are done remotely, on line, with software updated at home as required. Faults and bug reports are all reported on line (you can report a bug instantly, within car, using voice control - that said the system is a bit buggy :P ).

There isn't much to service. Our cars have electric motors doing almost everything, including all door opening and closure. These just swap out. As do computer pods, cameras and a few other modules. There is no oil service, timing belts, emissions checks etc. Consumable items like pads and disks and tyres can be done almost by drive through shops. Could probably be done robotically actually.

Remote diagnostics of practically everything mean parts can be ordered ready for the service visit and minimal time wasted. Service counter staff are or will become a vanishing breed: you report everything by app. You fill in your loan car details via app or email, and when you pick it up you collect the key from a secure box and deposit yours in exchange - no human interaction needed, so no tie to opening hours.

Car once checked is left on a charge bay for you to collect, fully juiced. Most "servicing" that I have experienced is actually warranty work or upgrades for mostly quite trivial stuff. It's all very slick and clean.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby RogerS » 05 Nov 2021, 14:55

I posted this in the OP

One question....heating? Heated screens etc Surely that must hammer the battery ?


Any thoughts ?
If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door.
User avatar
RogerS
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 13290
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:07
Location: Nearly finished. OK OK...call me Pinocchio.
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 15:07

If the car has piddly electric range, then yes.

In both of our Model X's (different batteries) the use of electrical systems like aircon, seat heating and entertainment appears to have a negligible effect on range. If you get into extremis (bad planning of charging) then the car has selectable mode which maximises get you home range by shutting stuff down.

By far and away the biggest effect on battery power consumption is your right foot. Electric cars typically have acceleration much better than petrol and diesel cars - even better than sports cars. The price you pay for actually using the performance is drastically reduced range. You can monitor this on screen (along with regeneration) inside the car on the dash. However, it is obvious that going slower and accelerating gently and using retarded slowing rather than braking, will maximise range.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Woodster » 05 Nov 2021, 15:08

Yes, I would expect servicing costs should be much reduced. Current EV’s are quite heavy so tyre wear may be higher. Folks have mentioned brakes as well but I don’t think that’s true with regenerative braking. Many new models are adjustable for this so it will no doubt vary with the driver to some degree.

Having lots of electrical equipment running must reduce the range of an EV but one country that has heavily invested in EV’s is Norway and the cold weather there doesn’t seem to have upset sales?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/norway-to ... next-year/
User avatar
Woodster
Old Oak
 
Posts: 2558
Joined: 26 Jan 2017, 13:17
Location: Dorset
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby 9fingers » 05 Nov 2021, 15:22

Various components of EVs need cooling and so there should be a reasonable supply of waste heat available for comfort heating especially if they use heat pumps to do the cooling which needs less battery power to run it.

I recall an American video of a EV teardown and being quite horrified at the complexity of cooling systems that were used making the under bonnet view just a busy as a liquid fuel car. The battery also requires to be heated in cold weather so it actually consumes battery power when not in use making sure the battery is warm enough to delivery motive power when demanded. A heat pump for the battery would be ideal as it is readily reversible between heating and cooling

It strikes me that range from a fully charged battery will likely be a function of ambient temperature as a result.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby AJB Temple » 05 Nov 2021, 15:45

You are right. Ambient temperature makes a noticeable difference. Not so much when actually running, but where the car is left overnight. I garage mine in the winter, and I also use pre-condition ie the car is plugged into the charger and pre-warmed immediately prior to use (via either app or in car programme). Range is close to summer levels if I do this, but easily 50 miles will be knocked off if I leave the car outside for a heavy overnight frost, not plugged in.

I don't know for sure, but gut feel is I would expect the small cars with small batteries and only basic charging tech, to exhibit this more.
Don't like: wood, engines, electrickery, decorating, tiling, laying stone, plumbing, gardening or any kind of DIY. Not wild about spiders either.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Sequoia
 
Posts: 5431
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Name:

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby 9fingers » 05 Nov 2021, 16:06

For those interested in such things, this video might be of interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ILkLUE3Zxc

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Petrified Pine
 
Posts: 10038
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: First drive of an electric car

Postby Lons » 05 Nov 2021, 19:18

AJB Temple wrote:From Lons

Have you driven an UP/Mii/Citigo whether petrol or electric Adrian?

Indeed I have. Both petrol and electric. I've driven a lot of short wheelbase small cars usually as hire vehicles in the Netherlands as it happens. Not sure they are comparable with much larger and heavier cars in terms of driving experience. We recently bought a Fiat 500 (actually an 800cc twin turbo) for my son's girlfriend. She's tiny and loves it. I was less enamoured but it's not for me.


:lol: :lol: I drove a Fiat 500 as it's a popular car to tow and it was horrible but I fully understand the attraction for young females, my DiL has the viagra version and it's a nicer car but like yourself definitely not for me either. We needed to buy a manual gearbox as my wife's Mini is an auto and not recommended to be towed so I'd have needed to put it on a trailer. A PHEV would have the same issue as the Mini only worse because the motors are permanently connected to the wheels so out of the question as far as I understand unless manufacturers are covering their backsides by saying that of course.
I have a degree in faffing about (It must be true, my wife says so)
Lons
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1687
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 21:48
Location: Northumberland
Name: Bob

Next

Return to The Woodmangler's Retreat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests