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Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

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Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby RogerS » 18 Jan 2022, 11:06

Dipped into Gridwatch today. We're getting close to the limit.

gridwatch jan 18 2022.png
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and France has little to spare

france gridwatch Jan 18 2022.png
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If only we had more nuclear energy :eusa-think: France appears to have few worries re gas pricing as far as electricity is concerned.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Lurker » 18 Jan 2022, 11:25

Right up until the early 80s the U.K. were world leaders in nuclear power development and manufacturing.

Then a vocal minority came along, plus short term thinking by the politicians and now we reap the results.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby 9fingers » 18 Jan 2022, 11:43

Seems to me in the case of electricity generation and possible a few other things too, the fundamental problem seems to be that successive govts don't want to own any infrastructure. The UK model of whichever political flavour seems to be to create an economic environment where private industry (including foreign owned) is encouraged to provide power stations, solar, wind etc at their expense.
However they force older facilities to close so we have lost (or soon to lose) a few nukes, coal generation is virtually shut down.
Add to that proposals for ASHP heating as a replacement for gas central heating and EVs with no real plan how it will be powered.
As Roger's screen shots show this time of year we are perilously close to using everything we can generate and little or no margin.

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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Woodster » 18 Jan 2022, 11:47

It’s an interesting topic. Some weeks ago wind turbines were supplying over 50% of our electricity here in the UK. We were even exporting a small amount to France as they have corrosion problems with one of their reactors and had to shut it down. France is heavily into NP while the Germans plan to shut down their last 3 reactors later this year. Germanys short term answer is to use natural gas instead.

As a species we’ve so far produced over a quarter of a million tons of nuclear waste and we don’t know what to do with it. It will apparently remain radioactive for between 10,000 and 100,000 years.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby MattS » 18 Jan 2022, 12:01

9fingers wrote:Seems to me in the case of electricity generation and possible a few other things too, the fundamental problem seems to be that successive govts don't want to own any infrastructure. The UK model of whichever political flavour seems to be to create an economic environment where private industry (including foreign owned) is encouraged to provide power stations, solar, wind etc at their expense.
However they force older facilities to close so we have lost (or soon to lose) a few nukes, coal generation is virtually shut down.
Add to that proposals for ASHP heating as a replacement for gas central heating and EVs with no real plan how it will be powered.
As Roger's screen shots show this time of year we are perilously close to using everything we can generate and little or no margin.

Bob


I can't understand this, they spend billions without thought into the pockets of shareholders of private companies why not just do it as nationally owned. I'd say it makes no sense, expect it does!

I really don't think as an island nation we need nuclear we should be harnessing the tidal energy alongside other green forms.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Lurker » 18 Jan 2022, 12:15

All our nuclear power stations ran well beyond their design life.
Testament to the design and manufacture plus the folks who kept them running.

The private owned power generation is a fallacy, if you look closely there are (foreign) government backing everywhere.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby RogerS » 18 Jan 2022, 12:47

Woodster wrote:It’s an interesting topic. Some weeks ago wind turbines were supplying over 50% of our electricity here in the UK. ....


Must have been Storm Arwen. Windpower is negligible today.

I don't know about you but I rather like having a lightbulb come on when I throw the switch. Fact of the matter is that you cannot rely on renewables for 100% of your electricity.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Woodster » 18 Jan 2022, 15:36

It obviously varies a lot. I’ve just checked and they say 17% for wind at the moment.

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If more storage comes on line perhaps the continued investment in renewables may start to pay off.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Mike G » 18 Jan 2022, 16:44

Woodster wrote:......... It will apparently remain radioactive for between 10,000 and 100,000 years.


During the last glaciation (ice age), the ice sheet was over 2km thick in some places in Europe. We're over-due a new glaciation, and there is literally nothing that man has ever made or could ever make that will stand in the way of a moving ice sheet. We better have a plan for that waste by then.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Sheffield Tony » 18 Jan 2022, 17:25

Wind is currently supplying more than our nuclear capacity.

To my thinking, if we are going to be paying EDF (thus the French government) to build and operate reactors, why not just install a thicker cable and buy the power from France and let them have the reactors there, we end up reliant on them in any case, and if the glaciers advance we will be upstream of the waste ...

It is hard to escape the conclusion that that there are now so many humans consuming so much there is no way to provide for them without significant ill effects on the environment. Reducing consumption seems to be entirely unpalatable to the majority.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Lurker » 18 Jan 2022, 17:50

Woodster wrote:
As a species we’ve so far produced over a quarter of a million tons of nuclear waste and we don’t know what to do with it. It will apparently remain radioactive for between 10,000 and 100,000 years.


True but 90+% is low hazard, far less dangerous than what’s leaking out of the granite in cornwall for example.
Remember that initially the nuclear power stations in the U.K. were primarily interested in producing bomb materials, the power was just a side benefit. That legacy is the nasty bit.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Lurker » 18 Jan 2022, 17:54

we will be upstream of the waste ...


Nope, we already have plenty of really nasty stuff up at sellafield.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Sheffield Tony » 18 Jan 2022, 18:15

Lurker wrote:we will be upstream of the waste ...


Nope, we already have plenty of really nasty stuff up at sellafield.


Ahh yes, there is that.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Andyp » 18 Jan 2022, 18:30

Sheffield Tony wrote:Wind is currently supplying more than our nuclear capacity.

To my thinking, if we are going to be paying EDF (thus the French government) to build and operate reactors, why not just install a thicker cable and buy the power from France and let them have the reactors there, we end up reliant on them in any case, and if the glaciers advance we will be upstream of the waste ...

It is hard to escape the conclusion that that there are now so many humans consuming so much there is no way to provide for them without significant ill effects on the environment. Reducing consumption seems to be entirely unpalatable to the majority.


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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Mike G » 18 Jan 2022, 18:31

Lurker wrote:
Woodster wrote:
As a species we’ve so far produced over a quarter of a million tons of nuclear waste and we don’t know what to do with it. It will apparently remain radioactive for between 10,000 and 100,000 years.


True but 90+% is low hazard, far less dangerous than what’s leaking out of the granite in cornwall for example.
Remember that initially the nuclear power stations in the U.K. were primarily interested in producing bomb materials, the power was just a side benefit. That legacy is the nasty bit.


Not only would any waste be at risk from glaciation, but any power stations (still in use or de-commissioned) would be ground flat by the ice.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby RogerS » 18 Jan 2022, 19:15

Mike G wrote:
Lurker wrote:
Woodster wrote:
As a species we’ve so far produced over a quarter of a million tons of nuclear waste and we don’t know what to do with it. It will apparently remain radioactive for between 10,000 and 100,000 years.


True but 90+% is low hazard, far less dangerous than what’s leaking out of the granite in cornwall for example.
Remember that initially the nuclear power stations in the U.K. were primarily interested in producing bomb materials, the power was just a side benefit. That legacy is the nasty bit.


Not only would any waste be at risk from glaciation, but any power stations (still in use or de-commissioned) would be ground flat by the ice.


Yebbut I reckon by the time the glaciers come, humanity, as such, will have ceased to be for one of any number of reasons.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Woodster » 18 Jan 2022, 19:23

A message proposed in 1993 by the US Department of Energy to warn future generations of nuclear-waste sites.

Image
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby RogerS » 18 Jan 2022, 22:51

Love it !

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I still like seeing that lightbulb come on.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Phil Pascoe » 19 Jan 2022, 09:48

Lurker wrote:True but 90+% is low hazard, far less dangerous than what’s leaking out of the granite in cornwall for example.

My old house was tested eight times over the safety limit for radon.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Alf » 19 Jan 2022, 10:05

Yes, but at least the glowing in the dark saves on the 'leccy bill...
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Woodbloke » 19 Jan 2022, 11:18

When fusion powered reactors come on line, we'll wonder what all the 'lecky fuss was about :lol: - Rob
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Pete Maddex » 19 Jan 2022, 13:26

What gets me is that the power stations suck electrons from the ground near your house all the way back down the wires.

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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby RogerS » 19 Jan 2022, 13:50

Pete Maddex wrote:What gets me is that the power stations suck electrons from the ground near your house all the way back down the wires.

Pete


We've thought about that and installed a moat around the house so they can't do that anymore. Surprised more people don't do it.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Lurker » 19 Jan 2022, 13:53

Woodbloke wrote:When fusion powered reactors come on line, we'll wonder what all the 'lecky fuss was about :lol: - Rob



Fission was going to be so cheap as to be not worth metering.
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Re: Gridwatch ..why electricity is so expensive

Postby Cabinetman » 19 Jan 2022, 16:37

Woodster wrote:A message proposed in 1993 by the US Department of Energy to warn future generations of nuclear-waste sites.

Image


Couldn’t get that to open, but not to worry, there was a interesting program on radio four today about pretty much the same subject, they were wondering how to protect people in 10,000 years time from caches of radioactive waste, The nuclear industry proudly said that all information was going to be kept in three boxes, printed on top quality paper encased in copper – so that’s going to work well isn’t it. The program was suggesting one way could be that a high priesthood be set up to take the oral message forward through the centuries as a religion. (It wasn’t a really serious program)
Burying it deep underground behind strong doors is actually just asking people to try and find out what’s in there, it will be fairly obvious that we took a lot of trouble to keep people out so it must be worth having – whoops. Ian
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