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Moral/ethical/practical question

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Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Tiresias » 24 May 2022, 21:35

Hmmm. This is a tricky one. The young hound has just been found to have a significant tumour in her bladder. I say young, the bitch is about 12 and a bit.

If it is confirmed (Dick Vet visit to come, ultrasound or MRI) the prognosis isn’t good. Six months if you leave it and 12 to 18 months or so if you get bits cut out. And the obvious risks of surgery on a dog that old.

No obvious distress to the hound so far.

Cost is not a difficulty.

My partner tears up even discussing it. As do my parents.

So. Do you throw money at the problem, knowing it will make little difference. Or do the palliative bits and say goodbye.

My friends are divided on the issue. The one that would have given me the bluntest advice (Borders farmer’s son) has just died himself of a monstrous stroke.

And for what it is worth I have been described as a cold-hearted b’tard. But that was when I was acting as an Expert Witness in a repossession case.

The hound in question -

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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby RogerS » 24 May 2022, 21:45

IMO given the prognosis then anyone suggesting putting the poor dog through the operation is putting their own POV first. Just trying to think that 'they are doing something'. I've been there. Similar situation. If there is no chance of fixing the problem then I think it is cruel to put the dog through it.

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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby AJB Temple » 24 May 2022, 21:47

Close to typical life span. I would not subject her to surgery and distressing treatments. Give her love and comfort in her remaining time. Then say goodbye with dignity.

PS. Still miss all of my dogs, Sasha, Cai, Tess and Remy.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby droogs » 24 May 2022, 21:57

Having had to go through similar situations twice before, here is my take. I love each and every dog I have like they are my child (having none myself they are my substitute). I have gone down the money no object do everything route the first time and regret the miserable quality of life I probably inflicted on my best friend. After 4 surgeries and countless pills etc he had a really miserable time towards the end. All due to my selfishness and refusal to let him go. The second time round i let nature take its course and gave paliative care and medicine until she started to really lose her quality of life and then made the decision to put her to sleep before she suffered too much. Of the two, I think the second was the better path and would hope my dogs know this. Very hard choice but hope this helps in some way.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Trevanion » 24 May 2022, 22:52

How strange, I was discussing this with someone else not a couple of hours ago.

It used to be that vets would typically advise you to put the animal to sleep if it was in pain and towards end of life, but I think since there are more pets than there have ever been it seems vets are capitalising on people's love for their animals and their reluctance to let them go and are offering all sorts of life-extending alternatives which as Droogs said, usually make the suffering last longer more than anything.

I remember when our dear Rottweiler at the age of 11 had quite serious arthritis in the spine and was in a lot of pain, the main vet was suggesting all sorts of remedies and snake oil that would supposedly do all sorts of miracles and the assistant vet said quite bluntly but compassionately "He's focked, it would be better for him if he's put to sleep." She was out of a job a couple of days after that (because putting animals to sleep doesn't earn anywhere as much money as silly medicines), but we did go with her advice and while it was very sad and you were doubting yourself at the time, I do think it was the best thing for the poor guy.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Blackswanwood » 24 May 2022, 23:37

This is a bit uncanny as I went through a very similar experience last week …

We inherited a puppy 11 years ago when my mother in law died suddenly. He became part of the family but given the circumstances of his arrival he’s a bit more special as far as my wife is concerned.

During a check up the vet noticed an abscess in his mouth and recommended taking a couple of teeth out. Given his age I was thoughtful about how he would cope etc but there was no hesitation from my wife and he was booked in.

All seemed to go well but 24 hours after the operation he became unwell. The vet said it would pass but he went down hill and was in pain and very messy. I broached the topic of what best to do with my wife early on Wednesday morning expecting I would have to argue the case for him being put to sleep but the couple of days seeing him suffering meant she was there already. I had to leave her to deal with it as I was due in London (which I did feel guilty about) and had resigned myself to getting a message later that we were in mourning.

As it turns out the vet decided it was a problem connected with the medication they’d put him on and he was admitted to doggie hospital. When I got the message while hopeful (and massively surprised) I did wonder what it would cost. I suspect the vet felt they had made a mistake as we just paid for the medication and the stay was free. After 24 hours of sedation and antibiotics on a drip he was on the mend. He was picked up on Friday and is absolutely fine now.

Sorry if that is a bit of a ramble but I would say that if money is not an issue then the quality of life you can achieve for her and not allowing her to suffer are the key factors to discuss with your vet.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Lons » 24 May 2022, 23:47

So sorry to hear that Tiresias you'll get disagreement whatever you choose.

We have a 7 year old Labrador and I'm already dreading what's to come as it will tear my wife apart. After the last dog died she wouldn't go within 100 yards of her grave for a very long time and thinking about it can still bring tears to her eyes 17 years later.

That dog, another Labrador developed a tumour in the front of her lower jaw and we were ( easily) persuaded by the vet that he could remove all of it and extend her life by several years and that she would not be impaired, he carried out the op, we found out later it was a first for him which annoyed me and although the dog recovered quickly and the fact part of her lower jaw was missing didn't seem to bother her the tumour reappeared within 6 months, grew even quicker and affected her badly so I will always feel guilty that I allowed to be swayed when in hindsight it probably wasn't in the best interests of a beloved pet which was 11 years old at the time.

No matter how difficult the decision the interests of the animal must come first even though the emotional cost is high.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Cabinetman » 25 May 2022, 02:27

Very sorry to hear, but sage advice on here.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby sunnybob » 25 May 2022, 04:26

I can give you a completely dispassionate opinion, as I am not a "dog person"

Forget you and your partners emotions. Its all about the dog. If it can carry on a normal "old age" life with minimal pain, then medicine and surgery is good.
If the dog is in so much discomfort it cant do anything except look at you sadly, then do the right thing for the dog, not for you.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Andyp » 25 May 2022, 06:55

Having only been a dog owner for a little over a year I find it hard to comment. I err on the side of what is right for the dog rather than you and the family, a tough decision to make, I do not envy you.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby novocaine » 25 May 2022, 08:11

Are you prolonging is life for it or for you?
If the former, do you think it will be a good life given the level suffering its going to put up with, all b the constant troops to the vet, the surgery, the pills and the pain?

If its for you, and be honest about this, then really think about it, because to be Frank, I see that as more heartless than putting the poor thing or if it's misery.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Woodbloke » 25 May 2022, 10:29

sunnybob wrote:I can give you a completely dispassionate opinion, as I am not a "dog person"

Forget you and your partners emotions. Its all about the dog. If it can carry on a normal "old age" life with minimal pain, then medicine and surgery is good.
If the dog is in so much discomfort it cant do anything except look at you sadly, then do the right thing for the dog, not for you.


:text-+1: :text-goodpost: Never had a dog, but have kept cats all my life (except SWIMBO is allergic to their dander, so no longer) We've always given our animals a good life, but when it's time for them to go, you need, in my very 'umble opinion, to do the right thing - Rob
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Artiglio » 25 May 2022, 12:04

My sisters last dog was diagnosed with terminal cancer, vet offered surgery and liklyhood of him last a year to 18 months, 3-6 months without. As he was getting on and had had a good life till then they decided to let nature take its course, he carried on untroubled for nearly 3 years then suddenly went into decline at which point the kindest thing was to have him put down , he was 15 by then.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Tiresias » 25 May 2022, 19:52

Thank you all for your advice. It is much appreciated.

As far as it goes the precept of doing what is best for the hound is a given – but how does one assess that? She can’t tell me. Anthropomorphising animals is generally unwise.

I think that we will get the preliminary scans done to verify the condition. After that, if the initial diagnosis is correct, then I am tending towards the view that a significant surgical intervention (and it is, believe me) on a bitch of that age is not compassionate. The hound also hates vets and surgeries – has to be seen to be believed. The distress to her is not worth it for a potentially limited extra lifespan, and, of course, all the associated risks of the surgery itself.

On the plus side the antibiotics and anti-inflammatories have eased her a lot over the last few days.

What ever I do, I will always wonder if it was the best course. And my partner will have to agree too.

Again, thank you.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Mike G » 25 May 2022, 20:24

I think everyone has said anything I might have said. I feel for you. Every dog owner knows this dilemma, and almost every dog owner has an "I got it wrong" story about one of their dogs.

If you do decide to have her put down, then have the vet come out to you. Dying in your own basket in familiar surroundings is surely a whole lot less stressful than going in the car then sitting in the waiting room of a vet's practice.
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Re: Moral/ethical/practical question

Postby Phil Pascoe » 25 May 2022, 22:11

I think you know the answer, you're just waiting for someone to agree with you. Look after the dog not your feelings.
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