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Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicles

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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 27 Jul 2022, 22:32

Woodster wrote:I never thought they were simple vehicles either but with apparently 1/5 the components of an ICE vehicle and far fewer moving parts I would expect reliability to be much better. We will have to wait and see though, it’s still relatively early days for the technology.

...


I'm sorry Woodster but the core technology is not 'early days'. Inverters and converters have been around for a long time but they are still Points of Failure.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 27 Jul 2022, 22:33

9fingers wrote:
Mike G wrote:I don't get it Bob. In what way are they essential?

Did you watch the video? None of the systems described are optional but essential the get the thing to work
Just look at the huge number of heating cooling hoses
If the battery is too cold it has to be heated
If it is too hot it has to be cooled
All the car lighting and control systems have to be 12v for safety so an inverter has to convert the 400v traction battery to 14v to charge it. That inverter needs cooling
Front and rear 3 phase inverters need to be cooled as do the two motors
That’s just a start. Everything listed is essential.
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I think Adrian missed that bit. :eusa-doh:
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 27 Jul 2022, 22:35

Woodster wrote:This article is interesting. About 20 moving parts for an EV opposed to 2000+ for an ICE!

https://www.evspeedy.com/ev-moving-parts/


Conveniently forgetting all the silicon needed to make it all work!
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 27 Jul 2022, 22:36

Sheffield Tony wrote:
Woodster wrote:This article is interesting. About 20 moving parts for an EV opposed to 2000+ for an ICE!

https://www.evspeedy.com/ev-moving-parts/


What a load of old cobblers. Who has a car that consumes a lot of oil ? Enough to be a cost consideration ? Do you ever need to top it up between services with a modern ICE car ? I have a gallon can of oil left from my MK2 Escort which i scrapped about 25 years ago, and I've had 4 cars since.

Studies show that, at least at the current time, EV's break down more than ICE's. Tesla among the worst, Kia somewhat better. Moving parts are not to be feared. Electronics is not 100% reliable. And only 20 moving parts in an EV can't be correct.


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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Jul 2022, 06:54

RogerS wrote:
I think Adrian missed that bit. :eusa-doh:


No Roger. But I am getting sick of your personal digs.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby woodstalker » 28 Jul 2022, 08:25

I think this topic always seems to draw opposing views that will not be swayed. EVs will suit some people and their situation and not suit others. The current crop of EVs are getting cheaper with more variety and affordability. Ultimately ICE cars are going to slowly phase out and it will become progressively more complicated to keep them running. (I used to use a 3 litre Capri as my daily driver necessitating LRP or Super Unleaded and additive. Then e5 petrol came in and started rotting all the hoses etc. )

At the end of the day each to their own. There’s no point arguing about them with each other on a Woodworking forum…

Anybody want to talk about the Tory leadership contest?
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby Woodster » 28 Jul 2022, 09:43

RogerS wrote: Inverters and converters have been around for a long time.


But not in cars. ;)

The Nissan Leaf is regarded as the first mass produced BEV and it was only introduced in 2010.

https://global.nissanstories.com/en/rel ... af-10years

If/when BEV’s reach the same develop age as ICE vehicles today I’d expect they’ll be considerably better but we won’t be around to see it.


woodstalker wrote:
Anybody want to talk about the Tory leadership contest?


No, they should have kept Boris! :lol:
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby 9fingers » 28 Jul 2022, 09:50

Such a shame that almost any mention of EV in a thread brings out these arguments.

My point was solely about the engineering of these things and that whilst people might have hoped for simplicity in these vehicles, the change from an ICE that needed to be covered in hoses and sensors to reduce emissions and maximise efficiency is now replaced by a battery and electric motors that also needs coolant hoses all over the place to get the best out the drive system.
Furthermore virtually all the other running gear, lights (and gadgets if desired) are run off a conventional 12v battery which has to be in reasonable state of charge in order to enable the high voltage battery and motors.
Depending on how one gauges complexity, although the number of well understood, well refined moving metal parts has been reduced, the number of cooling systems, hoses and other stuff arguably less widely understood has increased.
I wonder how/if the independent garages will cope and possibly more drivers will be forced down the the main dealer servicing route with the extra hourly rates they charge.

Lets play nicely chaps!

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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby Pete Maddex » 28 Jul 2022, 09:56



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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 28 Jul 2022, 10:02

Woodster wrote:
RogerS wrote: Inverters and converters have been around for a long time.


But not in cars. ;)

....
....


Suggest you watch the video that Bob posted in the first post.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby Sheffield Tony » 28 Jul 2022, 12:08

9fingers wrote:Such a shame that almost any mention of EV in a thread brings out these arguments.
[snip]
Lets play nicely chaps!
Bob


Not wanting to be misinterpreted, my "Load of old cobblers" was aimed at the article linked, not Woodster.

I'm not even anti electric car, they may well be the way to go. I just dislike the argument that because of their simplicity, lack of moving parts etc they are more reliable, which they don't appear to be. At least yet.

After all - a PC usually has only a couple of moving parts (the fans) all the rest is electronic, and they never go wrong :lol:
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby Woodster » 28 Jul 2022, 15:50

RogerS wrote:
Woodster wrote:
RogerS wrote: Inverters and converters have been around for a long time.


But not in cars. ;)



Suggest you watch the video that Bob posted in the first post.


I did. I’m aware that EV’s use inverters but they’re obviously not identical to your ones “that have been around for a long time” they’re specifically designed for EV’s. ;)
The Inverter on my lathe doesn’t have to handle a 400V DC input and it doesn’t have to deal with all temperatures and weather conditions. It also doesn’t have to deal with vibration from potholes and speed bumps. The inverter on my Lathe is also not water cooled! The last time I looked it also didn’t have to put up with 1G by doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds.

I’m lost now, what was you point anyway, EV’s should be cheaper/faster/better because Toshiba invented the inverter in 1980?
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 28 Jul 2022, 16:26

RogerS wrote:
Woodster wrote:This article is interesting. About 20 moving parts for an EV opposed to 2000+ for an ICE!

https://www.evspeedy.com/ev-moving-parts/


Conveniently forgetting all the silicon needed to make it all work!


This is what started this part of the discussion. Your implication that because there are only 20 moving parts ergo must be more reliable. At least that is what one can deduce from your assertion otherwise it was pointless to make in the first place.

Picking up on the semantics of 'inverters' is meaningless in the context of this thread.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 18 Aug 2022, 06:41

Mate of mine was bemoaning the fact that the fuel tank in his new company car was so small that he needed to fill it up twice a day ! I asked him how many mpg did his gas guzzler achieve. Quite reasonable, apparently. Turns out he'd gone for a hybrid :eusa-doh: and so they needed the room for the batteries.

How daft is that ? Carbon footprint has to be among the highest, surely, from a manufacturing standpoint. Then add in all the extra complexity...daft...plain daft IMO.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby Blackswanwood » 18 Aug 2022, 08:19

RogerS wrote:Mate of mine was bemoaning the fact that the fuel tank in his new company car was so small that he needed to fill it up twice a day ! I asked him how many mpg did his gas guzzler achieve. Quite reasonable, apparently. Turns out he'd gone for a hybrid :eusa-doh: and so they needed the room for the batteries.

How daft is that ? Carbon footprint has to be among the highest, surely, from a manufacturing standpoint. Then add in all the extra complexity...daft...plain daft IMO.


Sounds like the company he works for needs a new Purchasing Team Roger.

We're mid-way through a programme of switching all our essential car users to full EV's and switching to a car allowance for everyone else with a staff scheme that is more attractive if they chose EV or hybrid. It initially had a mixed reaction with a vocal minority bringing up all the range anxiety issues but the only moans now are how long it takes to get delivery and the available colour choices.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby AJB Temple » 18 Aug 2022, 11:41

My wife's company is going the same way. All of the directors now have EVS and the service fleet is being switched to electric vans as the leases expire. Various vehicle charge points installed in their car park already and the supply beefed up. All of the London vehicles are being switched as a priority because the saving in emissions levies is substantial. The ULEZ charge is £12.50 a day. That saving for just one day pays for the fuel usage for a week, and they totally save the £70 a week they were spending on each vehicle a week on diesel. They have vans active 7 days a week so electric is around £140 a week cheaper to operate per vehicle in direct cash flow.
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 18 Aug 2022, 15:54

Blackswanwood wrote:
RogerS wrote:Mate of mine was bemoaning the fact that the fuel tank in his new company car was so small that he needed to fill it up twice a day ! I asked him how many mpg did his gas guzzler achieve. Quite reasonable, apparently. Turns out he'd gone for a hybrid :eusa-doh: and so they needed the room for the batteries.

How daft is that ? Carbon footprint has to be among the highest, surely, from a manufacturing standpoint. Then add in all the extra complexity...daft...plain daft IMO.


Sounds like the company he works for needs a new Purchasing Team Roger.

......


They're a car financing company !
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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby 9fingers » 18 Aug 2022, 16:03

Surely the whole idea of a plug in hybrid is to run on leccy most of the time and just did yourself out of trouble on liquid fuel? Maybe this is the intended use for Rogers mates car but he is using it 4rse about face?
These seem to be the sensible answer for drivers with range concerns but stupidly in my personal the guvmint are proposing to outlaw them in favour of pure EVs

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Re: Do you think that EV's are less complex than ICE vehicle

Postby RogerS » 18 Aug 2022, 17:25

9fingers wrote:....Maybe this is the intended use for Rogers mates car but he is using it 4rse about face?
....

Bob



Sounds like my mate :lol:
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