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Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dave R » 15 Apr 2022, 14:47

Cool stuff. I've done a bunch of modeling for 3D printing useing SketchUp which a friend has printed. I can't decide on what printer I'd want and every time I think I've made a decision a new printer comes out. The FIRST Robotics team for which I'm a mentor uses OnShape. Very powerful but I fond it exceedingly clumsy and tedious to use. It's so different from SketchUp.

Nothing special here. These were draft prints my mate printed for me from a simple SketchUp model.
Image

I modeled this crank arm in SketchUp as a replacement for part a drill press in the shop the robotics team uses. The 3D printed part was on the drill press less than 24 hours after the original one broke.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Andyp » 15 Apr 2022, 15:35

Dave, The mind boggles at what you could achieve with a 3D printer and your CAD skills.
I do not think therefore I do not am.

cheers
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dave R » 15 Apr 2022, 15:43

Andyp wrote:Dave, The mind boggles


Thank you, Andy. It might be a good thing I haven't got my own 3D printer. The house would be full of useless 3D printed knick knacks. :D
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 15 Apr 2022, 16:50

Dave R wrote:...uses OnShape. Very powerful but I fond it exceedingly clumsy and tedious to use. It's so different from SketchUp.


I think a lot of it is a combination of what makes sense to your brain and what you're used to.

I used Sketchup years ago before I had anything else and I managed to model a few things (including the driveway & the steps up to the front door), but I never got on with it. By contrast I picked up most of the parametric CAD systems I've tried quite quickly. I'm in awe of what you do with Sketchup, but I'll stick with CAD.

The impression I've got is that there are 4 main ways 3D packages work.

If you can use Sketchup then with practice you'll get good at Sketchup.

If you can use Fusion 360, then with practice you'll get good at Fusion 360 and, with a lot of work, you can learn to use other parametric CAD systems.

If you can use OpenSCAD, OpenJSCAD or CADQuery, you can learn the others in that list fairly easily.

If you can use OnShape, Solidworks, SolidEdge, NX, FreeCAD, ZW3D, Alibre Atom or a few others, then you can pick up any of the others in that list easily. Alternatively, with a lot of work and a fair amount of swearing you can figure out Fusion 360.

Which one you learn first probably dictates what you find easy.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dave R » 15 Apr 2022, 17:00

Dr.Al wrote:I think a lot of it is a combination of what makes sense to your brain and what you're used to.


I agree 100%. It has a lot to do with what you get used to and how you tend to process things. When I watch experienced users working in OnShape it looks like they are working so hard to produce what they do. But I imagine some people would say the same about watching me work in SketchUp.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 15 Apr 2022, 17:22

Dave R wrote:When I watch experienced users working in OnShape it looks like they are working so hard to produce what they do. But I imagine some people would say the same about watching me work in SketchUp.


Yep :lol: . I watched a video where you made a model of (if I remember correctly) a coupling. I was seriously impressed by what you can make SketchUp do, but I also spent most of the video thinking "making that bit would be so much easier in a parametric CAD system"
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby 9fingers » 16 Apr 2022, 09:04

Dr.Al wrote:
Dave R wrote:...uses OnShape. Very powerful but I fond it exceedingly clumsy and tedious to use. It's so different from SketchUp.


I think a lot of it is a combination of what makes sense to your brain and what you're used to.

I used Sketchup years ago before I had anything else and I managed to model a few things (including the driveway & the steps up to the front door), but I never got on with it. By contrast I picked up most of the parametric CAD systems I've tried quite quickly. I'm in awe of what you do with Sketchup, but I'll stick with CAD.

The impression I've got is that there are 4 main ways 3D packages work.

If you can use Sketchup then with practice you'll get good at Sketchup.

If you can use Fusion 360, then with practice you'll get good at Fusion 360 and, with a lot of work, you can learn to use other parametric CAD systems.

If you can use OpenSCAD, OpenJSCAD or CADQuery, you can learn the others in that list fairly easily.

If you can use OnShape, Solidworks, SolidEdge, NX, FreeCAD, ZW3D, Alibre Atom or a few others, then you can pick up any of the others in that list easily. Alternatively, with a lot of work and a fair amount of swearing you can figure out Fusion 360.

Which one you learn first probably dictates what you find easy.


Dr Al thanks for that useful analysis of classes of cad packages.
I have a long term desire to learn a cad package to use with my milling machine cnc conversion ( still very much a back burner project) so need a route to gcode eventually.
I have failed to learn sketchup adequately and similarly fusion 360 but in the process have a strong desire for the parametric route.
Can you suggest which of your categories might be best for me to try next please?
I use a PC not Mac

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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 16 Apr 2022, 09:56

9fingers wrote:Dr Al thanks for that useful analysis of classes of cad packages.
I have a long term desire to learn a cad package to use with my milling machine cnc conversion ( still very much a back burner project) so need a route to gcode eventually.
I have failed to learn sketchup adequately and similarly fusion 360 but in the process have a strong desire for the parametric route.
Can you suggest which of your categories might be best for me to try next please?
I use a PC not Mac
Bob


I think your best bet would be to try OnShape (disclaimer: I recommend this to most people who want to try parametric CAD, even though I only use it occasionally). It's different to Fusion 360 (which you've already said you didn't get on with) but very similar to most other CAD systems. You could also try FreeCAD, which has the advantage of private models but the user interface takes a bit of getting used to. The tutorials for OnShape are much better though (FreeCAD suffers a little from having a lot of tutorials on the web for older versions that aren't really relevant any more).

I'd also recommend looking at SolidWorks Makers edition (https://discover.solidworks.com/makers) - I haven't tested it as it wasn't available (or at least I couldn't find it) when I was looking around, but it looks to be the same as the professional SolidWorks software for not much money.

A bit more background if you're bored and want to read more of my waffle...

I should note that most of the CAD modelling I do isn't in OnShape, despite the fact I recommend it.

A few years ago I did a trial for about 3 months, comparing OnShape, Fusion 360, Alibre Atom 3D, IronCAD INOVATE [sic], ZW3D Lite, DesignSpark Mechanical, NaroCAD, NanoCAD, OpenSCAD, OpenJSCAD, CADQuery and maybe some others I've forgotten. I also looked at options for "personal" editions of some of the more mainstream ones like SolidWorks but the options were limited at the time. Before I did the trial, I'd used NX, SolidEdge & SolidWorks (but only in a very minor way and I've never been trained in the proper ways of using them). I'm sure that coloured my view in that I wanted a CAD system that worked the way all three of those work.

I wanted something I could do private models with and that unfortunately ruled out OnShape. After lots of umm-ing and ah-ing and frustrations with Fusion 360, I decided it was worth it (to me) to buy one of the cheaper (but not cheap!) options as I wanted the ability to do private models, I wanted to do top-down modelling (designing parts based on other parts in an assembly) and I didn't like Fusion 360 (either the interface or the licence that has to be renewed every year and they can take away whenever they want).

Alibre Atom 3D is a complete waste of money: it offers nothing that FreeCAD doesn't offer and I suspect FreeCAD will overtake it fairly soon (as there are features that Alibre are keeping back for their more expensive offers). DesignSpark Mechanical isn't much better than Atom 3D and charges for a lot of features that should be considered essential. In the end I bought a perpetual licence for ZW3D Lite (which means I can keep using it forever without ever paying again).

I now use ZW3D Lite for most things, but occasionally I'll use OnShape where the privacy thing doesn't matter and I want something that it offers (e.g. better text handling, gear constraints in an assembly, easy-ish scripting, etc). As you might be able to see if you watch the video I posted, the similarity of approach with OnShape vs the other ones in that category mean that I can switch between them pretty effortlessly. I still use NX once in a while as it's on my work PC and again I can switch to that without too much effort.

I also occasionally use CADQuery, but that's perhaps not for the faint hearted (or at least not for non-programmers)...

If I were going through that exercise again, I think it's very likely I would have ended up with SolidWorks Makers edition, but I've bought ZW3D Lite now so I'm not intending to change. If I didn't have the occasional need for things to be kept private, I'm certain that I'd be using the free version of OnShape.

If I were using a Mac (which I know you said you aren't) then the options are certainly more limited, but OnShape and FreeCAD definitely work on Windows, Mac and Linux and I imagine some of the others do too.

There is, of course, a risk with the non-perpetual licence options. Autodesk or OnShape or SolidWorks could decide to withdraw their free or cheap option and then your models become inaccessible. Autodesk have already reduced the functionality of the free Fusion 360 licence a bit. My advice here is the same as my advice with any CAD package to be honest: every time you finish a model (or more often is better!), export that model as a STEP file. It takes a few seconds and will give you a model in a format that can be imported into any other CAD system worthy of the name. You may also want an STL for printing or whatever, but imported STL files aren't editable in any pleasant way whereas STEP files are (you lose the parametric history, but you can still make changes to the design).
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby novocaine » 16 Apr 2022, 10:40

Freecad can convert stl files back in to something editable.

For work I use autocad 3d and plant 3d. For home I use free cad.

I don't like fusion although i can drive it. Same with solid works which I was a super user for once upon a time along with being a beta tester for autodesk as part of the AUGI. Some of those "features" you are using now are my fault.
Onshape I have no experiance with.
Last edited by novocaine on 16 Apr 2022, 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 16 Apr 2022, 10:44

novocaine wrote:Freecad can convert stl files back in to something editable.


There are lots of programs that can, but none of them do a job that is anywhere near as good as just having the STEP file. STEP files represent the object as blocks that are similar to the representation used by the CAD system. STL files represent them as triangular meshed surfaces. You can go from STEP to STL easily and from STEP to CAD easily. You can go from STL to CAD, but the result is never that good.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Robert » 16 Apr 2022, 11:42

Posting mainly to say thanks to the OP and others for a very informative thread that has had a lot of effort put into it.

I've not used my Ender3 V2 as much as I thought I would. I do have some more ideas for things I'd like to make but the CAD effort involved means it is waiting until I'm really bored.

My working life was Autocad and CAM software. Mostly 2D drawings to dxf for processing. Retired meant a change to sketchup which was painful at first but is now easy. Tried fusion long enough to get a few drawings done with it but never really felt like I knew it. Online tutorials were often showing old versions with different layout or not explaining whatever they thought was obvious but wasn't to me. May have to give Fusion another go.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby novocaine » 16 Apr 2022, 15:28

Dr.Al wrote:
novocaine wrote:Freecad can convert stl files back in to something editable.


There are lots of programs that can, but none of them do a job that is anywhere near as good as just having the STEP file. STEP files represent the object as blocks that are similar to the representation used by the CAD system. STL files represent them as triangular meshed surfaces. You can go from STEP to STL easily and from STEP to CAD easily. You can go from STL to CAD, but the result is never that good.


True. Was just saying that there are options if you failed to safe the step file.
Have to admit that all my stuff is in .dxf for the same reason you use step files. Except those daft wee things that don't really matter like end caps for postal tubes. :lol: (yes I really did print a couple out earlier this week)
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 16 Apr 2022, 17:37

novocaine wrote:
Dr.Al wrote:
novocaine wrote:Freecad can convert stl files back in to something editable.


There are lots of programs that can, but none of them do a job that is anywhere near as good as just having the STEP file. STEP files represent the object as blocks that are similar to the representation used by the CAD system. STL files represent them as triangular meshed surfaces. You can go from STEP to STL easily and from STEP to CAD easily. You can go from STL to CAD, but the result is never that good.


True. Was just saying that there are options if you failed to safe the step file.
Have to admit that all my stuff is in .dxf for the same reason you use step files. Except those daft wee things that don't really matter like end caps for postal tubes. :lol: (yes I really did print a couple out earlier this week)


Out of interest, do you know how many applications can read 3D DXFs? I know that 2D DXFs are supported basically everywhere (and are pretty much the de facto standard), but I don't think I've ever seen a 3D one "in the wild" so don't really know how they compare to the support of something like STEP or IGES.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby novocaine » 16 Apr 2022, 18:44

All the ones I use. :D
Which to me, is all that matters.

It ain't "my way or the highway" its just my way and it works for me based on the years if doing it for a living" :lol:
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Malc2098 » 16 Apr 2022, 18:53

Speaking as a CAD/CAM noobi, I am struggling with both Fusion 360 and OnShape. I have used Sketchup in the past; some of you may remember my animations of my workshop design. I eventually got the hang of SU, but only sufficiently to do what I wanted to do then.

Now, I want to design for my cnc routing machine which means CAD/CAM so that I end up with a gcode file.

There is a lot of online encouragement to use one of Vectric's products and I confess that I find that easier to draw (they allow you to download a free version before you buy) but I'm still only just learning, but I find it easier than Fusion or Onshape. Vectric's products will walk you through the tool paths that you'll employ on the CNC router. I think Fusion will, too. But I haven't found out fs OnShape can do that yet.

Vecrtic will only run on Windows though, and I can't be bothered to try and set a Windows emulator up on my Mac.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 16 Apr 2022, 19:03

novocaine wrote:All the ones I use. :D
Which to me, is all that matters.

It ain't "my way or the highway" its just my way and it works for me based on the years if doing it for a living" :lol:


It wasn't a criticism at all: it was genuine curiosity about how widespread the 3D DXF standard had become. I know the 2D one is the best there is for portable 2D drawings and wondered how the 3D one compared.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 16 Apr 2022, 19:06

Malc2098 wrote:Speaking as a CAD/CAM noobi, I am struggling with both Fusion 360 and OnShape. I have used Sketchup in the past; some of you may remember my animations of my workshop design. I eventually got the hang of SU, but only sufficiently to do what I wanted to do then.

Now, I want to design for my cnc routing machine which means CAD/CAM so that I end up with a gcode file.

There is a lot of online encouragement to use one of Vectric's products and I confess that I find that easier to draw (they allow you to download a free version before you buy) but I'm still only just learning, but I find it easier than Fusion or Onshape. Vectric's products will walk you through the tool paths that you'll employ on the CNC router. I think Fusion will, too. But I haven't found out fs OnShape can do that yet.

Vecrtic will only run on Windows though, and I can't be bothered to try and set a Windows emulator up on my Mac.


That's a shame: I'm sorry it isn't working out for you. I'd never heard of Vectric or their product. Out of interest, do you think you can describe what it is about the Vectric software that you find easy compared to the parametric ones?

If there's anything I can do to help with the parametric sorts I'm happy to try, although if they don't suit you they may be the wrong thing to explore.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby novocaine » 16 Apr 2022, 20:12

Dr.Al wrote:
novocaine wrote:All the ones I use. :D
Which to me, is all that matters.

It ain't "my way or the highway" its just my way and it works for me based on the years if doing it for a living" :lol:


It wasn't a criticism at all: it was genuine curiosity about how widespread the 3D DXF standard had become. I know the 2D one is the best there is for portable 2D drawings and wondered how the 3D one compared.


As I said to Mike, please don't take offence at my response, it isn't mean't in that way, I have issues around using the correct phraselogy at the moment. it was genuinely meant to be an off the cuff response with no malice intended.

in the industrial world in which I pretend to work it is the preferred format used by everybody, but I guess we all have autodesk or solidworks so it makes sense there. I have never been handed a step file from a client though.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Malc2098 » 16 Apr 2022, 21:08

Dr.Al wrote:
Malc2098 wrote:Speaking as a CAD/CAM noobi, I am struggling with both Fusion 360 and OnShape. I have used Sketchup in the past; some of you may remember my animations of my workshop design. I eventually got the hang of SU, but only sufficiently to do what I wanted to do then.

Now, I want to design for my cnc routing machine which means CAD/CAM so that I end up with a gcode file.

There is a lot of online encouragement to use one of Vectric's products and I confess that I find that easier to draw (they allow you to download a free version before you buy) but I'm still only just learning, but I find it easier than Fusion or Onshape. Vectric's products will walk you through the tool paths that you'll employ on the CNC router. I think Fusion will, too. But I haven't found out fs OnShape can do that yet.

Vecrtic will only run on Windows though, and I can't be bothered to try and set a Windows emulator up on my Mac.


That's a shame: I'm sorry it isn't working out for you. I'd never heard of Vectric or their product. Out of interest, do you think you can describe what it is about the Vectric software that you find easy compared to the parametric ones?

If there's anything I can do to help with the parametric sorts I'm happy to try, although if they don't suit you they may be the wrong thing to explore.


Thank you. I shall persevere both with Fusion and OnShape, for a while, it took me a while to get my head around SU, and modelling, so I hope my head will grasp it.

Here's Vectric's products for comparison. They seem to be aimed at the CNC routing machine.

https://www.vectric.com/free-trial

But they only work on Windows, and I've had find, clean and upgrade my late M-i-L's old laptop because we have been a Windows free house for several years now.

Edit! And it's British!
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby ScaredyCat » 19 Apr 2022, 14:03

I did a few designs when I got my 3d printer ( https://www.thingiverse.com/scaredycat/designs )

My most popular one is the "My adaptors" one where you can generate your own particular hose adaptor.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby canoemoose » 19 Apr 2022, 23:12

It's interesting to see other people's opinions of different CAD software - ten or 12 years ago, as part of my course at university, I was taught Solid Edge by a real, certified instructor and used it on-and-off for a few years. Later on, with the advent of 3D printing, I discovered Fusion360 and took to it pretty quickly, and converted a colleague from an old version of Solidworks too. The workshoppy people at work use Inventor, and the principles are similar enough I can dabble over someone's shoulder.
On the other hand, I don't see eye-to-eye with SketchUp (At all. Honestly.) and find 2D Autocad and its ilk frustrating because in my mind it'd "work better" if it did things like a 2D sketch in 3D parametric CAD - or at least had driving dimensions - and I was also taught and enjoyed "manual" technical drawing so I understand where it's coming from.

Oh, and I have an Ender 3 Pro and love it for all sorts of silly little practical gadgets.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 20 Apr 2022, 07:28

canoemoose wrote:On the other hand, I don't see eye-to-eye with SketchUp (At all. Honestly.) and find 2D Autocad and its ilk frustrating because in my mind it'd "work better" if it did things like a 2D sketch in 3D parametric CAD - or at least had driving dimensions - and I was also taught and enjoyed "manual" technical drawing so I understand where it's coming from.


I'm absolutely with you on how frustrating it is to try to do a 2D CAD drawing without the availability of driving dimensions etc. I've looked around now and then for a 2D drawing package that supported constraints, but (apart from something called solvespace that seemed a bit clunky) I largely drew a blank.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Malc2098 » 20 Apr 2022, 15:38

I set myself the task of designing a small box for the granddaughters to leave their tooth in for the fairy to swap it for a coin. I had their names written on the lid.

I have no background in technical drawing apart fro 7 years Woodwork at school in the 60s.

I have used Sketchup in the past to design my workshop and I've used it to model, then print a 2D drawings of wood that I've mangled. This was the free online web based version, which does not export 3d files.

I've tried it in Vectric's Cut2d, Fusion 360 and OnShape.

As a newcomer to 2D & 2.5D CNC router shaping, I really am starting from scratch, and to get to a a tool path design stage I've found Vectric to be the most user friendly. The other two are free to a hobbyist, but Vectric is a commercial product and only the trial is free.
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Dr.Al » 20 Apr 2022, 15:44

Malc2098 wrote:As a newcomer to 2D & 2.5D CNC router shaping, I really am starting from scratch, and to get to a a tool path design stage I've found Vectric to be the most user friendly. The other two are free to a hobbyist, but Vectric is a commercial product and only the trial is free.


Sounds like you've found the best option then. How much is Vectric?
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Re: Workshop Uses for 3D Printing

Postby Malc2098 » 20 Apr 2022, 18:20

Cut2D Desktop $149/£110/€135

Cut2D Pro $449/£350/€420

VCarve Desktop $349/£275/€330

VCarve Pro $699/£540/€660

Aspire $1,995/£1,500/€1,800

They are a one off purchase with a lifetime licence for the product.

https://www.vectric.com/purchase
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