It is currently 18 Jun 2021, 15:58

Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Roll up, roll up. Here you will find everything from new workshop designs, through builds to completed workshop tours. All magnificently overseen by our own Mike G and his tremendously thorough 'Shed' design and generous advice.

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 18 Dec 2020, 21:15

If the wall stricture is strong enough for the vertical load, you could consider cement boards or even the impermeable Portland cement boards. These will last far longer and could be rendered if permanence was desired.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 10:24

AJB Temple wrote:If the wall stricture is strong enough for the vertical load, you could consider cement boards or even the impermeable Portland cement boards. These will last far longer and could be rendered if permanence was desired.


Not considered it. Can the cement board be installed on stud walling?

Struggling to find a waterproof cement board, any links to look at please?

Thanks
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 10:26

From looking around, this is the best deal I can see regarding OSB in bulk. £16.7 or so per sheet if you are willing to buy at this type of QTY.

https://www.builderdepot.co.uk/18mm-osb ... pack-of-36
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 19 Dec 2020, 13:43

Cement board can be installed on stud. All of it is water resistant but some is intended to be capable of being submerged (the Portland type). I am not necessarily recommending it for your application but I have often seen developers use it as a final surface prior to rendering. There are plenty of bulk suppliers - just google it. It is more expensive than OSB obviously, and I would only use it of you want a long lasting product (ie pretty much permanent).

You can also buy it as formed cladding obviously. Final finish in that case, fully weather proof, no painting etc. But I am suggesting large sheets.

It's quite heavy to handle - two people per sheet. Best to pre-drill when fitting.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 19:40

AJB Temple wrote:Cement board can be installed on stud. All of it is water resistant but some is intended to be capable of being submerged (the Portland type). I am not necessarily recommending it for your application but I have often seen developers use it as a final surface prior to rendering. There are plenty of bulk suppliers - just google it. It is more expensive than OSB obviously, and I would only use it of you want a long lasting product (ie pretty much permanent).

You can also buy it as formed cladding obviously. Final finish in that case, fully weather proof, no painting etc. But I am suggesting large sheets.

It's quite heavy to handle - two people per sheet. Best to pre-drill when fitting.


OK, thanks. I dont mind if its the permanent stuff at a higher cost if it can be reused. What 'product name' would I be looking for under the formed cladding?
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 20:15

https://freefoam.com/news/a-guide-to-cladding-2020

This type of stuff? I got some UPVC from them, looks decent, a bit industrial looking but clean / durable.
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 22:11

I wonder if any of this stuff that might be used later in the build, could be used as a 'wall' as an interim? It has no roof bearing requirement, as the existing structure is still in place.

https://www.cutpriceinsulation.co.uk/pr ... 8VEALw_wcB

If not this, are there any other 'insulation products like this or Celotex that might be waterproof and could be used as an interim 'wall'?
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 19 Dec 2020, 22:19

Chaz wrote:I wonder if any of this stuff that might be used later in the build, could be used as a 'wall' as an interim? It has no roof bearing requirement, as the existing structure is still in place.

https://www.cutpriceinsulation.co.uk/pr ... 8VEALw_wcB

If not this, are there any other 'insulation products like this or Celotex that might be waterproof and could be used as an interim 'wall'?


It's got little or no strength so wont give any security if that is a requirement. Not much wind resistance either. But yes it could be useful later if it will give enough insulation to meet building regs.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7275
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 22:40

9fingers wrote:
Chaz wrote:I wonder if any of this stuff that might be used later in the build, could be used as a 'wall' as an interim? It has no roof bearing requirement, as the existing structure is still in place.

https://www.cutpriceinsulation.co.uk/pr ... 8VEALw_wcB

If not this, are there any other 'insulation products like this or Celotex that might be waterproof and could be used as an interim 'wall'?


It's got little or no strength so wont give any security if that is a requirement. Not much wind resistance either. But yes it could be useful later if it will give enough insulation to meet building regs.

Bob


Thanks. So if some stud walling is built, it might work? I might try and get a sheet or two of this stuff and see what its like.
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 19 Dec 2020, 22:49

Very bad idea to use insulation board as an outside wall temporarily. The wind and weather will rip the foil off and building movement in winter storms will break it up. You will waste a lot of time fixing it securely.

You've got an architect on the case now. Why not ask him or her what you can use as a temporary external panel that can be re-used readily later in the build.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 19 Dec 2020, 22:53

AJB Temple wrote:Very bad idea to use insulation board as an outside wall temporarily. The wind and weather will rip the foil off and building movement in winter storms will break it up. You will waste a lot of time fixing it securely.

You've got an architect on the case now. Why not ask him or her what you can use as a temporary external panel that can be re-used readily later in the build.


In that case, back to OSB or Ply I think. Ditch the other temp ideas then.
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 20 Jan 2021, 12:23

So Ive put up some damp proof membrane and created a bit of a temp structure to make the workshop usable. Struggling a bit with wind / noise and keeping the membrane from flapping in the wind but working on that. I bought 10 sheets of OSB3 which Ive used in a way to hopefully be able to reuse it later if we do go ahead with a wood structure.

I'm looking at 18mm Softwood Plywood (c+/c grade) - cost is £20 per sheet if I buy 50 versus OSB coming in around £24.

So, if I can keep this dry, can the Ply be used for internal structure. Then, if I have too much of this wood later, can I use grade C for making racking / furniture etc? It sounds like its 'ok' but may have imperfections ....

Thanks
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 20 Jan 2021, 17:56

Grade C will be patched both sides and have internal voids. if you get it damp it will eventually delaminate. Top layers likely to be exceedingly thin.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 20 Jan 2021, 18:54

I'm never sure on my ply grades, but I think this is commonly called sheathing ply. If it is protected from the weather and fastened down extremely well to a strong frame, then it might be OK, but it does have a terrible habit of twisting all over the place, and it can delaminate. There will be voids, and the surface texture isn't great. If you use it, store it well, and use it well.
User avatar
Mike G
Sequoia
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: 30 Jul 2014, 22:36
Location: Somewhat less of a hovel
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 20 Jan 2021, 23:29

AJB Temple wrote:Grade C will be patched both sides and have internal voids. if you get it damp it will eventually delaminate. Top layers likely to be exceedingly thin.


Thanks, its not going to be in the wet, im putting it on the inside of the DPM so generally its dry.
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 02 Jun 2021, 17:35

Hi,

So update time.

We were given the planning for the existing structure and now need to consider next steps. Ive been speaking to companies to get pricing on metal structures and whilst they arent too badly priced and can be erected quickly, everyone warns of condensation issues, even with the insulation / anti condensation options.

Steel was also an option on the basis that we dont need strucural calcs as these are already done as part of the various kits - at most we would need to sink a few mounting pads in concrete, adjacent to the existing floor.

So, this leads me to a wood structure. How can I quickly get an idea of cost and/or if its a better route to follow than steel? Some steel options allow for wood 'covers' which is also an option but not sure if it fixes the main problem. Wood prices are also high at the moment, which is why I was looking at steel.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Jun 2021, 20:24

This is a how long is a piece of string question. We need a drawing. Roof pitches approved by planners will make a big difference.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 03 Jun 2021, 15:36

Suppose its chicken / egg. I cant cost it till I get a drawing and Im reluctant to pay for drawings and structural calcs (which Ive been told could be £000s) just to get a price to build.

I know this is a wood working forum - so perhaps a bit unfair but for a workshop where condensation must be kept to a minimum (Ive got a lot of machines that will corrode), is there a 'best' option?
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 03 Jun 2021, 16:16

Chaz wrote:Suppose its chicken / egg. I cant cost it till I get a drawing and Im reluctant to pay for drawings and structural calcs (which Ive been told could be £000s) just to get a price to build.

I know this is a wood working forum - so perhaps a bit unfair but for a workshop where condensation must be kept to a minimum (Ive got a lot of machines that will corrode), is there a 'best' option?


Yes fastidious attention to zero cold bridges across insulation if you are aiming for a warm workshop or loads of ventilation for a cold shop.
Personally I think wooden construction is far more versatile and easier with basic tools and techniques

A wooden floor even if straight over a concrete base ( with compulsory dpm )is more comfortable than a breathable non dpm bare concrete floor.

My shop is high density concrete blocks clad inside and out with timber and the inside surface of block is saturated with synthaprufe bitumen sealant. Bone dry in there but designed like that from the ground up.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7275
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 03 Jun 2021, 18:08

Your catch 22 is not real. It is caused by you not wishing to invest a small amount in educating yourself enough to get started. None of it is hard but no one here can tell you what to do unless we can see your rough plans and have some idea of your level of ability.

Steel framed farm building are dirt cheap for the size. I've bought them in the past (for a farm). But you will spend an arm and leg on insulating them, even with prefab insulation systems. Super quick though.

Therefore, I think Bob has it there. If I were looking to save money, do a fast build and avoid condensation and keep external noise down I would be building block walls, cladding or rendering, adding vapour shield and insulating with at least some PIR inside then ply or whatever is acceptable to you finish wise. Block goes up fast and is easy DIY. This is how I built my quite large utility room / larder last year. Took under a week to have walls up and weathertight (6m by 3m so not large but cheap and quick). If you do it properly designed you can then span it with steel or maybe laminated timber and softwood to do your roof. Use the roof space for storage (by which I mean do not buy el cheapo fink trusses unless your pitch is very low).

If I were in your shoes I would by now be very familiar with the building regs, have bought one of the trade structural and method handbooks, and probably bought a framing book such as the one by Steve Chappell which teaches you how to do all of the structural calculations in timber and has easy to follow rules of thumb.

In a big workshop like this you presumably plan to use it a lot. It will need heating and in winter you will value money spent on insulation now (though good luck with getting it!).

Look out for a second hand BIG log burner as well.
User avatar
AJB Temple
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1366
Joined: 15 Apr 2019, 09:04
Location: Near Tunbridge Wells, mid Kent
Name: Adrian

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 05 Jun 2021, 19:35

AJB Temple wrote:Your catch 22 is not real. It is caused by you not wishing to invest a small amount in educating yourself enough to get started. None of it is hard but no one here can tell you what to do unless we can see your rough plans and have some idea of your level of ability.

Steel framed farm building are dirt cheap for the size. I've bought them in the past (for a farm). But you will spend an arm and leg on insulating them, even with prefab insulation systems. Super quick though.

Therefore, I think Bob has it there. If I were looking to save money, do a fast build and avoid condensation and keep external noise down I would be building block walls, cladding or rendering, adding vapour shield and insulating with at least some PIR inside then ply or whatever is acceptable to you finish wise. Block goes up fast and is easy DIY. This is how I built my quite large utility room / larder last year. Took under a week to have walls up and weathertight (6m by 3m so not large but cheap and quick). If you do it properly designed you can then span it with steel or maybe laminated timber and softwood to do your roof. Use the roof space for storage (by which I mean do not buy el cheapo fink trusses unless your pitch is very low).

If I were in your shoes I would by now be very familiar with the building regs, have bought one of the trade structural and method handbooks, and probably bought a framing book such as the one by Steve Chappell which teaches you how to do all of the structural calculations in timber and has easy to follow rules of thumb.

In a big workshop like this you presumably plan to use it a lot. It will need heating and in winter you will value money spent on insulation now (though good luck with getting it!).

Look out for a second hand BIG log burner as well.


Thanks. At no point did I say I wasnt willing to invest to get an answer. I was reluctant to pay £000s to get some structural calcs done without knowing an estimate for what the total cost would be.

Since we have a size, 14 x 7m approx, is there a guide in terms of what a breezeblock building would cost?

Ill take a look at the other resources you linked. Thanks.
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 05 Jun 2021, 21:31

Its about 10 blocks per sq m so you can work out how many blocks and get a cost from that.
You will need piers every 2.5 metres or so for stability.

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7275
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 06 Jun 2021, 17:55

9fingers wrote:Its about 10 blocks per sq m so you can work out how many blocks and get a cost from that.
You will need piers every 2.5 metres or so for stability.

Bob


Thanks. So its 10 blocks per sq meter. I have circa 120 m^2 of wall (not floor, ironically very close) area, so its the cost of blocks x 10 x 120, and double that if a dual skinned wall? Correct?

Thanks
Chaz
Seedling
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 27 Nov 2020, 10:43
Name:

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 06 Jun 2021, 18:29

Yes that will give you the block cost then you need muck and labour plus ties.

I think pavingexpert website might have calculators for the muck

Bob
Information on induction motors here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dBTVXx ... sp=sharing
Email:motors@minchin.org.uk
User avatar
9fingers
Sequoia
 
Posts: 7275
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 20:22
Location: Romsey Hampshire between Southampton and the New Forest
Name: Bob

Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Doug » 07 Jun 2021, 11:53

Chaz wrote:
9fingers wrote:Its about 10 blocks per sq m so you can work out how many blocks and get a cost from that.
You will need piers every 2.5 metres or so for stability.

Bob


Thanks. So its 10 blocks per sq meter. I have circa 120 m^2 of wall (not floor, ironically very close) area, so its the cost of blocks x 10 x 120, and double that if a dual skinned wall? Correct?

Thanks


If you are needing that number of blocks it’s worth enquiring about a direct delivery, when I built my workshop I ordered my blocks from the builders merchant but they came direct from Tarmac, the manufacturer, it cut the price dramatically though I had to have a full lorry load.

I didn’t need all the blocks so I sold those that were over, I priced them a little cheaper than the big sheds & not only made a nice profit but they went like hot cakes.
Doug
Old Oak
 
Posts: 1193
Joined: 21 Jul 2014, 22:22
Location: @dougsworkshop
Name:

Previous

Return to Workshop Builds

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests