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Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

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Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 02 Oct 2020, 17:21

Hi all,
This is my first thread where, with your advice, I plan to build a new workshop to replace my prefab garage. Please bear with me as this is a bit long...

A bit of history:
In 2007 we bought our stone cottage complete with large garden, 2 acre paddock and two outbuildings; outbuilding 1 had two pony stables and a tool room, outbuilding 2 is a large 10m x 4m 1970s prefab garage. We moved here for the land so we could have a small holding; since then I have bred pedigree sheep on a make do and mend basis as far as the outbuildings are concerned. The house was a wreck and we've spent the past 12 or so years renovating it as budget allowed, but the outbuildings were way down the pecking order until I took early retirement and could spend my time renovating them. The stables were in a sorry state, the walls are very sturdy, built from 130mm multicell blocks, but the roof and doors were shot to hell. I use the two stables as temporary sheep lambing pens, the other is a toolshed. The garage structure is in pretty good knick but totally unsuitable as a workshop. As for me I have a lot of experience of DIY and building renovation but I'm no expert; I'm still pretty active but no spring chicken!

The Plan:
Transform my not so beautifully painted 1970's built prefab garage into a splendid workshop. I want to keep the prefab blocks as I rather like the stone effect and they should paint up nicely. The stables would be clad in feather edge after the workshop is finished and the whole lot painted.

This
old garage (2016_09_28 08_37_56 UTC).jpg
(27.74 KiB)

into this (sort of)
Very nice clapboard workshop.jpg
(21.18 KiB)


The Problem:
The outbuildings are flooded every so often; they are at the bottom of our garden and lower than the house, the paddock borders a stream that sometimes breaks its banks and floods the paddock and the outbuildings in 2-3" of water. Also the roofing is corrugated asbestos which was in terrible condition over the stables but in good order over the garage. However the garage roof suffers badly from condensation in winter and water dripping down has ruined quite a lot of my tools and other stuff over the years. It is freezing cold in winter and baking hot in summer. The two buildings are on the same 23m concrete slab but are offset from one another by some 300mm. The garage floor is solid but slopes quite badly towards the double garage doors across about half its length (this looks like the result of a poorly built later extension).

The Solution:
Raise the stable walls by one row of 215mm concrete blocks, build a new warmer cedar shingle roof and lay insulated concrete floors to the height of the bottom concrete block.
Move all the workshop stuff into the new, lockable stables and tool shed.
Take down the prefab garage and build a walk through with a dormer roof by reducing the size of the workshop to 8m. There will be an undercover single door fitted here. This walkthrough is to allow access to the paddock for me and the sheep!
Lay a course of 130mm concrete blocks with the front row in line with the stable wall. Lay a new base, build a timber frame over the blocks and attach the concrete slabs to the frame using the existing concrete posts but with longer bolts.
Build a new cedar shingle roof and integrate it into the stables roof with a dormer in between.

New Outbuildings.png
(146.48 KiB)


Current Progress:
The stables are finished enough to store my workshop stuff. From the pic below you will see I've added a top level of blocks and a new roof clad in sarking and red cedar shingles. The floor was then laid with 100mm insulation and 120mm fibre reinforced concrete

Shingles Laid.jpg
(62 KiB)


Inside the tool shed showing the sarking and collar ties

Tool shed ceiling.jpg
(37.7 KiB)


As it looks today, roof all nicely silvered. Also note the raised height of the thresholds. Phase 2 is on the right :oops:

Finished.jpg
(61.68 KiB)


Phase 2 - Workshop
Internal garage walls were lined with thermalite blocks that weren't tied to the concrete slabs and wobbled plus they couldn't hold a toilet roll holder up. I sold them on eBay.

Thermalites removed showing typical bolt and clamp fixings. There is a full height rebate in each concrete slab that produces a floor to ceiling 'slot' that a 47mm piece of timber fits neatly into so I'm hoping that once bolted this may produce a stronger bond between timber frame and concrete sheathing, however I do need to consider if I can reduce thermal bridging.

Thermalites removed.jpg
(102.79 KiB)


Here's a picture of the outer rear wall showing 300mm slab sticking out and this will increase by another 300mm once I deskew the two buildings, I may need to hire a wheeled cutter to remove the excess slab before laying the blocks and/or new slab.

Outer wall showing the amount of slab sticking out.jpg
(71.6 KiB)


The front (garden) side will see a row of blocks or new slab right up to the edge and eventually mot and paviors will be laid up to the top of the row of blocks, so this side isn't a problem for water ingress. I plan to black shield the block or slab faces but there will only be MOT against them.

Before I can start the rebuild I need to solve two fundamental problems:

1. After reading other posts I'm concerned that once the concrete base is laid rain hitting the surrounding remnants of the old slab could permeate and cause damage to the blocks. I could build a wider workshop to go from edge to edge but this would increase my costs quite a bit. I also may not have enough concrete slabs for the extended bit (although I could infill with timber cladding). Alternatively I could trim the slab to size using a floor saw before I start the blocks which would be my prefered option.

2. If I build a row of 130mm x 215mm blocks as I'd planned, since reading other posts I'm now concerned that the force of laying the concrete may disturb the blocks. However, I could use formers made from the 125mm x 47mm rafter timbers to protect the block run until cured. Would this work?

The rest of the floor construction will follow how I and others have done it before so I won't repeat all of that. Thanks in advance.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 02 Oct 2020, 19:20

Hi and welcome. That's quite a project you've taken on.

You've an even more fundamental problem than the ones you mention. If you build this building as planned you will make a single new building well over 30 square metres internal floor area, and that means you have to comply with Building Regulations........and that will prevent you building directly on an existing piece of non-reinforced concrete. Before you commit to this, I'd think very carefully about keeping it as two separate buildings.

As to the questions:

1/ If your base sticks out past the plinths walls, but you have a raised floor internally, then pouring a tilting fillet of concrete onto the top of the existing (scabbled and cleaned) to form a slope down which water will run. This will prevent pooling. You can only do this if you have a floor raised above the slab, though, otherwise we are into an awkward tanking detail. The top of the fillet must finish at least 150 below the DPC.

2/ Blocks are 100 or 140 wide. A 140 wide single-block-high wall of good construction, and properly cured, will hold up its own height in depth of wet concrete. However, for your peace of mind, whack a couple of 2x2s well into the ground 2 or 3 feet away, (wherever is convenient), place a scaffold board against the face of the plinth, and brace back to the posts with some 2x2.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Malc2098 » 02 Oct 2020, 20:42

Welcome from Devon. There'll be plenty of experience and advice on here.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 02 Oct 2020, 21:29

Thanks Mike
Yes it is a major project and one I have been planning for many years. However I wasn't aware of the building control issue so thanks for the warning so I will now have a rethink. I'm not sure if the concrete slab is reinforced or not but if I take the option of trimming it back with a floor saw that may well reveal any steel so I will try that. If that doesn't reveal any steel I could easily not build the roofed underpass for now and keep the buildings separate. I do plan to reinforce the new concrete overlay though. I only used fibres in the stables as the floors are each only 12m2, needing to support a couple of sheep and myself at any one time and so far there is no cracking whatsoever. I'll let you know how I get on.

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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 02 Oct 2020, 21:54

Finding reinforcing won't really help you. In fact, it would be a nuisance as it would then be exposed , and would start oxidising. Oxidised steel expands, and that would crack your concrete (it's known as concrete cancer). If you suspect there is steel in the slab, then don't cut it. Building Control would require a calculated raft, and that would mean a thickened toe (edge), a specific design for the steel, a special concrete, and a Structural Engineer's stamp on the calculations. Thus some steel in a bit of old concrete is of no use to you or them. If you build this as a single building you'd have to comply with Part L of the regs too, and provide heat loss calculations. It really is well worth avoiding coming under their auspices if you can.....and that means buildings under 30 sq m (internal).
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 03 Oct 2020, 23:17

Mike
The existing garage is 9m x 4.2m and I had planned to reduce it to 8m x 4.2m to create a walkthrough so if I still create the gap but don't link the roof i.e. keep it as a separate building, will it escape building control as I am rebuilding, but shrinking, an existing building? Otherwise I may need to also reduce the width to 3.3m.

thanks for your help

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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2020, 07:50

Most local authorities would count that as a new build. It doesn't matter to Building Control if there was another building there previously. It can make a difference in Planning terms, but we're not interested in them. Building Control will be involved in your building if it is above 30 square metres internal floor area.

It depends on the thickness of your walls, but if they are just 100mm then you'll need to reduce your length by 300mm to 7.7m to get the floor area down to 30 sq.m. Let me know your proposed wall thickness (have a read of my guides to shed building, too........in my signature, for an argument for building them of timber) and I can tell you your floor area.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 04 Oct 2020, 15:00

Thanks, I read your really useful guides and followed your responses to other builds over the last couple of weeks.

My plan is to build exactly as per your guide but using one row of 440 x 215 x 140 blocks instead of bricks (the blocks at the front and sides will be covered by a raised paviored path, so bricks would be wasted) and to clad it using the existing concrete panels bolted through to the inner timber frame of 100 x 47mm with 100mm insulation and a 25mm gap between frame and concrete sections.

I've used the soggy weekend to rethink my plans based on your advice (by the way by this morning there was a small lake lapping at the threshold of the garage door!)

Internal measurements: I've made rather an annoying cock up here as I've been taking rough measurements from my sketch up and never changed them as I progressed. The accurate internal measurements of the garage as it is now (and I've just remeasured it) are 11m x 4.25m!!

Internal length: with 1.2m section taken off one end I'm left with 9.8m. Allowing 100mm + 25mm gap + 18mm for sheathing = 143mm x 2 = 286mm. So 9.8m - 286mm = 9.514m
Internal width: 4.25m - 286mm = 3.825m
Total new internal area = 36.39m2 so I need to lose at least 6.39m2.

If I reduce the length further I need to remove one 1.2m column of concrete sections at a time otherwise it will look wrong and create a lot of work cutting them.

Option 1: Reduce the length by another 1.2m section = new area of 8.314 x 3.825 = 31.8m2 so that doesn't work

Option 2: Reduce the width to 3.4m. The garage is 3 sections wide so I could cut the middle section and it would still look balanced. So reducing the width to 3.4m the same as the loose boxes (which from a roof aesthetics point of view would be better) = 3.4 x 9.714 = 33m2 - so no good there either

Option 3: Do Option 1 & 2 = 8.314 x 3.4 = 28.27m2 so there's my answer. I lose a lot of space but it will solve the building control issue and cost a lot less to build. I've marked it out on the garage floor and it's ok.

I've mocked up how it will look as two separate buildings and it's not so bad, I just rather liked the idea of a covered walk through and it would have been handy as a porch as the door would be under it. Still never mind.

Separate New Outbuildings.png
(106.7 KiB)


My next decision will be to revisit my idea of de-skewing the two buildings by lining them up at the front or pushing the workshop further back which would leave me with a useful 2.9m yard at the front of the workshop. My wife also favours the yard idea but it does mean that I could never 'join' the two buildings in the future
:text-lol:

The next design challenge for you is how do I best sit the bottom concrete sections onto the 140mm blocks such that water doesn't get in (they currently rest on the concrete floor slab) and that they remain supported by the concrete pillars? They will have to sit back towards the middle of the block to allow the concrete pillars to rest on them or do I lay a series of concrete blocks in front of the row to support each column? Do I have to create a concrete fillet?

Sorry for all the questions!

Mike
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby 9fingers » 04 Oct 2020, 15:09

Once you have completed the two buildings and all the dust has settled, you might even think of adding a "temporary" ie wooden, covered way between the two for your convenience/protection when going between the two.

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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2020, 17:11

There's a bit of a classic mistake in those elevations! Looking from the opposite side, the buildings will be the other way around, with the black thing on the other end. All by-the-by... :D
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 04 Oct 2020, 18:05

Tech Drawing was never my strong subject :D

Any advice on the bottom concrete sections/panels?
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2020, 18:25

I'm not clear on what you are proposing. You are going to leave the concrete posts in place and build blockwork between them? Then sit the panels on top? Is that it?
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 04 Oct 2020, 20:00

It's a sectional garage sitting on a thick slab; the concrete panels are held in place by bolts running through an external concrete post and between two panels, screwing onto an internal clamp which bridges two adjoining panels.

I need to raise the whole structure up by one 215mm block to stop it flooding. I want to keep the concrete posts and sections as (once painted) will look pretty good and it will save me a lot on timber cladding.

The garage floods every few years and suffers from rain water ingress under the panels every year. I need to raise the panels and the posts and sit them on the blocks in a way that rain cannot get in so my thinking is that I will have to either sit the panels further into the middle of the run of blocks to enable the posts to sit firmly on them, or lay a block at every post position against the block run which would allow the sections to sit of the edge of the blocks.

Doing it this way will raise it up to the same level as the nearby outbuildings.

Does that make sense?
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 04 Oct 2020, 20:10

You can't sit posts on blockwork. There is a rotational moment on them whenever the wind blows, and there is no good way of resisting that on the top of a block plinth.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 04 Oct 2020, 21:19

Ok thanks for that. :eusa-doh:

Given the reduced size of the new workshop I may have enough panels left to leave the panels on the existing slab and still reach the new wall plate, but the posts won't be long enough so I'll have to have a think about how I can clamp the panels from existing slab to new wall plate.

If I get around this do you think by leaving the panels on the old slab I would still need to build an inner row of blocks or can I concrete up to the panels? This means the DPC that would overlay the old concrete slab will be level with the bottom of the panels and fold up between the timber frame (which would sit on the new overlay slab) and the panels.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 05 Oct 2020, 07:55

You need to make a watertight junction on the outside of the building. You can't have water on the inside, even if it is below your new floor level. I wouldn't be building like this at all, frankly. However, if you are going to try to bodge something together using the old panels then you either need to make a watertight junction between the bottom panel and the posts and slab, or you need to find another way, You might consider mortaring the bottom panel into place, and using Synthaproof or similar to seal the bottom panel all round before pouring your concrete internally. That's a really nasty second best way of proceeding. You could build a continuous plinth around the outside of your building, and clad the exterior of the panels with boarding and have a proper junction at the junction with the plinth.

Or you could demolish the existing and build an orthodox building on a plinth, and not have the difficulty of trying to seal vertical junctions at ground / floodwater level.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 10 Oct 2020, 19:32

Thanks Mike I've mulled it over and will take your advice. Now, mindful of your advice not to cut existing concrete, once I dismantle this garage I will be left with a very large slab, which extends below the nearby outbuilding, the left over portion of which I could cover with paviours. Remembering that my initial objective is to raise the new workshop 215mm (one block) up from its present level (the same as I've done with the nearby outbuilding to prevent flooding) can I sensibly keep the existing slab and lay a new, smaller, reinforced 120mm slab with 100mm insulation? If so do I need a 215mm concrete edge? I could then build a brick plinth on top of this.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 10 Oct 2020, 20:25

I don't think you can, Mike. You'd effectively have floodwater able to get under the insulation, which would give it (the insulation) a flotation pressure potentially moving the concrete which is sitting on it. If nothing else this could lead to the creation of a path in for water, bubbling up through the floor.

I think your answer is build a course of blocks around the perimeter, then fill with rubble/ hardcore topped with concrete up to the top of the blocks. You could then add a floating floor above that if you wanted. Trying to keep floodwater out of that build up will be a bit easier than if there was insulation involved.

I'm just thinking off the cuff now, but I wonder if I would Synthaproof the inside of the first block course and say a foot of the existing concrete inside that blockwork, then lay a DPM on that and blind it with sand, then bring the DPM up the inside face of the plinth wall to lap with the DPC. You could then back-fill with hardcore, but leave say 300mm clear of the walls so that the concrete you pour on top is the full height of the first course of blocks for the first foot or so. This should eliminate voids and make it really difficult for any water to get in. As a real belts-'n-braces exercise, Synthaproof the block and slab externally as per the inside, then cast a concrete fillet against it.

Let's see if I can do you a quick sketch.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 10 Oct 2020, 20:55

Something like this:

Image
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 10 Oct 2020, 21:37

Wow thank you! This is just what I need and can now cost it all up. I'm currently building a stone dwarf wall for a lean-to greenhouse I will be building for my wife so will need the existing garage to dimension and construct the timber frame and openers. To construct this base I may be at the mercy of the weather, if its like last winter I could really crack on so we will see. I'll keep you updated.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 08 Mar 2022, 23:43

It has been a while as Covid and the horrendous increase in the cost of materials forced me to put the project on hold. I spent a large part of last year slowly building a new greenhouse for my wife and she was so delighted with it that a fine bargain was struck on the workshop build. I will be updating my post on the greenhouse shortly.

Since then, taking om board advice from Mike my thinking has changed a little. The plan is to now sell the 1970's built prefab garage and build a new 30m2 timber frame workshop.

I am currently preparing the last of the 3.4m x 3.4m stable loose boxes ready to lay a new concrete floor at the weekend. I will then convert it into a temporary workshop and move all the workshop gear into it, then sell the prefab garage. Once it has gone, I can lay a new re-enforced concrete base over the old garage slab using the design given to me by Mike. I still want the two buildings (stables and workshop) to follow the same design, but the stables are built from concrete block so will be clad quite low to cover most of the bottom row of blackjacked blocks. This means a brick plinth would be wasted so I am planning to build it using Thermalite Turbo 2.8n 150mm blocks as they have a low thermal conductivity.

Question 1: Mike will these be ok? https://condell-ltd.com/thermalite-bloc ... per-pallet

The front of the new workshop slab will be laid flush with front edge of the old slab (and in line with the stables) so no water ingress. However, the rear blocks and double door side blocks will be set further in from the rear and side faces of the old slab which provides an opportunity for water ingress so I will pour a fillet of concrete along the whole of the back wall and along the double door side wall and black jack it following Mike's earlier drawing of the proposed solution (it shows bricks but will be blocks). The only detraction from this design is to lay 100mm Jablite (I can’t stretch to PIR) instead of MOT and 125mm concrete over that increasing to 225mm around the edges (I'll be using 225mm scaffold boards as formwork). This will help to utilise the thermal mass of the floor.

Question 2: I plan to install re-enforced mesh but can’t decide whether to fit a single layer held in place with mesh men and twisted wires, or double up the mesh as DT85 did? I realise double layer mesh is used for rafts but mine is sitting on an existing solid slab.

I will then build a timber frame over the blocks following the same method ably covered by Mike and DT85. The roof will be different, cedar shingles laid on counter battened OSB3 sarking and breathable membrane to match that over the stables. Meanwhile here's the latest proposed layout which I've taken from Mike's own workshop design except the smaller area on the left is skewed to the front rather than in the middle. The width of the smaller section matches that of the stables.

Proposed layout.png
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So Stage 1 – removal of the old garage has begun….
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 09 Mar 2022, 08:28

MikeJ460 wrote:......Question 2: I plan to install re-enforced mesh but can’t decide whether to fit a single layer held in place with mesh men and twisted wires, or double up the mesh as DT85 did? I realise double layer mesh is used for rafts but mine is sitting on an existing solid slab..….


Why are you planning to put mesh in?
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby MikeJ460 » 09 Mar 2022, 14:00

Just belt and braces Mike. Do you think it isn't needed?

I haven't put any in the stable floors but I did use fibres to avoid surface cracks and give a bit more strength.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby Mike G » 09 Mar 2022, 14:18

If you're casting on top of an existing slab I honestly can't see what you'll gain by reinforcing.
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Re: Workshop Build - Turning My Frog into a Prince

Postby AJB Temple » 09 Mar 2022, 15:31

Mike, this may seem an odd question, but may I ask why you have put the bracing on the outside of your stable doors?
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