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Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

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Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 11:56

Hi,

So was registered on another forum which seems to have become inactive (or my thread is just plain boring).

Summary story.

We bought a house earlier in 2020 that has an existing 'barn' structure. The structure has been in place for a number of years, certainly more than 10 and we have photos showing some structure there in the 60s when it was being used for livestock and similar.

There is a 'shell' of a building with some form of concrete floor in areas.

I looked at a few options and we opted to pour the base in 2 stages. The first stage was done in the summer which gives an area of roughly 13.5 x 3m. The second stage, which should be done next week (much later than hoped) will give us the other 2/3rds of the floor space which is 13.5 x 7m. The total floor space is therefore around 120 m^2.

There is an existing wall / roof structure which not in a good state. About half of the first floor has no roof as the previous owners had 2 x Chicken Coops standing there which have been removed.

The concrete bases are being poured at 150mm deep, with steel and C30 is being used.

A decision point now is whether or not I build a steel or wood structure. My end goal is ideally to have an insulated workshop, if at all feasible.

The existing structure is a mix of 100mm box section steel uprights with a combination of metal angle and wood 'beams' across. The roof leaks so needs to be patched / replaced.

Looking at the structure since we removed some of the side walls, its not in good shape. My gut tells me to replace it all, as funds / time allows.

So, metal or wood. Ive looked at both and being a complete layman (I work in IT, but enjoy getting my hands dirty), it looks like wood is my best option based on cost, ease of build and ability to insulate. The current roof has a slight incline, so tempted to go with a hot roof. The roof peaks at 3m in the centre, 2.4m on the sides (which are 3 and 7 meters away respectively).

The plan is to put engineering blocks down as bricks, perhaps 2 courses high, with a DPC between it and the concrete. The concrete already has its own DPC but it was not left long enough to wrap up and over.

The rest of the build would then be similar to other workshop builds here.

This is where the questions start, is engineering block right, should I use normal bricks instead etc etc.

End goal is to end up with a wood stud structure that allows us to put PVC Shiplap on the side. The cost is more (And I appreciate that this is a woodworking forum) but this looks to be the better decision for longer term ease of use. Ill do a bit of work to get images uploaded to show / explain what we have.

Thanks all.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 12:30

So, some pics showing what's here, what's been done and some CAD of ideas / options.

HousePhotos1 - Copy.jpg
(205.71 KiB)


Barn3.png
CAD view
(640.09 KiB)


WhatsApp Image 2020-03-08 at 13.04.42 (2).jpeg
Images of the Barn before we bought the property
(372.28 KiB)


Barn1.png
Barn Inside
(1.71 MiB)


Barn2.png
Barn Inside
(1001.68 KiB)


BarnPour1.jpeg
First Pour Section
(304.59 KiB)


Below is the current state of play, still need to do some levelling, steelwork, DPC etc for the 2nd pour. Should have been done earlier in the year, long story, hope it can be done now despite the cold.

BarnPour2.jpg
2nd Pour Area
(555.93 KiB)
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Malc2098 » 27 Nov 2020, 12:39

Hi Chaz,

I've got no answers for you, but can assure you that by the end of the day you will have loads of sensible and viable suggestions.

Sounds like a great project, looking forward to photos.

Good luck.

PS. What are you going to do in it when it's finished?
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 12:45

Malc2098 wrote:Hi Chaz,

I've got no answers for you, but can assure you that by the end of the day you will have loads of sensible and viable suggestions.

Sounds like a great project, looking forward to photos.

Good luck.

PS. What are you going to do in it when it's finished?


Thanks. It will be an area to be used for a few things. I dabble with CNC machines and fix them / make them / use them. I also mess with bikes and make parts. So perhaps some bike / car restoration.

Just a big man cave, in reality. I'd like to get into some wood working too. Bought a Wadkin 3 phase Radial Arm saw a few months ago which Ive got up and running on a VFD - so will look to add some tooling there too over time to be able to make stuff.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby TrimTheKing » 27 Nov 2020, 12:51

Welcome aboard Chaz

There are much bigger and more qualified brains than mine who will be along to help with your questions, but that's a great looking space so looking forward to seeing how it comes along and what you get up to in there.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby RogerS » 27 Nov 2020, 13:56

I love these threads :D

I was going to suggest you might like to think about deleting Richardson Ln. (stop any nefarious people thinking about paying a visit) but Maps yielded nothing sensible so reckon you're safe !
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 14:04

RogerS wrote:I love these threads :D

I was going to suggest you might like to think about deleting Richardson Ln. (stop any nefarious people thinking about paying a visit) but Maps yielded nothing sensible so reckon you're safe !


Indeed. Its a private road, but yes, need to be careful. Actually, its possible to find it via other means .....
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 27 Nov 2020, 14:10

Assuming you have addressed planning issues and neighbours?

I would actually get a basic design done by an architect or engineer for this. It's a big building for home use, with a fairly big span of 7 metres or so, rather a low pitch and quite a signifiant risk of heavy snow loading.

Are you happy your footings are substantial enough in the post locations?

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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 14:36

AJB Temple wrote:Assuming you have addressed planning issues and neighbours?

I would actually get a basic design done by an architect or engineer for this. It's a big building for home use, with a fairly big span of 7 metres or so, rather a low pitch and quite a signifiant risk of heavy snow loading.

Are you happy your footings are substantial enough in the post locations?

Adrian


We had discussed planning / regs on the other forum but ye, didnt start with that here.

Interesting position. The 'structure' has been standing for over 10 years and we have evidence of that from photos / pics dating back to 2009.

We spoke to some architects and got different answers in terms of their view of planning.

Our current understanding is that this complies with requirements for Lawful Development Certificate. I started the application myself but quickly realised that I am out of my depth to complete some of the questions at risk of getting it wrong.

After some discussion and thought, I've left it. Considering we might want to sell in future, its probably worth sorting. We do not expect to live in this at all, it will remain a 'man cave', garage / workshop etc.

Our neighbours are all OK, we have spoken to them. The current structure creaks in the wind, is not stable and they are surprised its remained stood this long. The end result will be something of the same size (if you include the 2 Chicken Coops that were removed and will be destroyed) but something that is modern and clean, not algae covered cement board panels that were there previously.

In terms of the concrete, I'm working a company that does groundworks for buildings. They are confident with the calcs as a floor but of course it does depend on what's on top of it.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 14:57

Wanted to add, if I could get access to someone from the local planning authority (even at a nominal cost), I would but that is no longer available as far as I understand.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 27 Nov 2020, 20:09

I've a feeling I might have commented on this one elsewhere. At 13m x 7m a steel portal-frame starts becoming competitive, but if you want to do it in timber, you still can so long as you are OK with either a spine wall or a run of posts along the mid-line. Naturally you would expect an architect to say get your permissions sorted first...........so, get your permissions sorted first!! :) It shouldn't be too much of a struggle, given your situation.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 22:11

Mike G wrote:I've a feeling I might have commented on this one elsewhere. At 13m x 7m a steel portal-frame starts becoming competitive, but if you want to do it in timber, you still can so long as you are OK with either a spine wall or a run of posts along the mid-line. Naturally you would expect an architect to say get your permissions sorted first...........so, get your permissions sorted first!! :) It shouldn't be too much of a struggle, given your situation.


You did but I believe you left that forum? The thread got no updates and my last update left tumbleweed .... so came here instead :-)
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 27 Nov 2020, 22:26

Yeah, I left UKW. I was just checking as I comment on lots and lots of workshop builds, and sometimes confuse myself.

So what sort of superstructure are you thinking of?
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 27 Nov 2020, 22:44

Mike G wrote:Yeah, I left UKW. I was just checking as I comment on lots and lots of workshop builds, and sometimes confuse myself.

So what sort of superstructure are you thinking of?


No idea. There is a metal support structure around the sides of 100mm box iron and then some metal structures in the centre that have been concreted in.

I was thinking to do a brick 1-2 courses, then wood with shiplap (PVC). I dont mind if there is a support structure in the middle, not ideal but there is a lot of space for a man cave and this can be used for areas to have behind machines and bring down compressed air etc.

The current roof is in bad shape, so too the support structure. The 'walls' arent much more than staggered wood that has gaps between it. Whilst it keeps most of the water out, its not waterproof. The section that had some boarding and steel sheets on the sides have all been removed.

What would you do with this type of structure - trying to keep it similar in size and roof height? I could possibly go up a bit but want to retain the size to make sure I dont cause issues on the planning side (ie, its the same structure but basically repaired).
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 27 Nov 2020, 22:48

Well, I'm a woodworker..... :lol: Yep, I'd put some posts along the middle, carefully located, and make everything else the way I always say: timber frame on a plinth.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Blackswanwood » 27 Nov 2020, 22:57

It looks like you have the potential to make things a lot tidier for you and your neighbours and have a great workspace.

A friend of mine is a serial doer upper of landrovers and ATV’s and he bought a steel building in kit form from a company who do agricultural buildings. I expected it to be cold and draughty farm shed but it is actually a comfortable workshop. I would say it’s about 10 x 20m and the kit cost him £30kish. It’s probably ideal for what he does ... the only bit of woodwork that I have ever seen him do was pulling the dashboard off a Triumph Stag though!
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Nov 2020, 07:19

You can buy steel buildings in kit form with all the panels including roof pre-insulated. Example http://www.bondsgaragesandsheds.com/sec ... -buildings

A 10m by 7m building is £15,550 plus VAT with 40mm wall insulation and 60mm roof insulation which is the basic level.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 28 Nov 2020, 08:03

Whilst that looks great value for a pre-built building and would be the quickest solution, there are a couple of things to think about. For a start, there would be no getting away with "I just fixed up what was there, Mr Planning Enforcer". And secondly, I reckon you could build a timber building of that size for four or five thousand less, depending on material choices for the walls and roof. That £4/5000 comes at the cost of a lot more work, though, and either having central posts or a carefully engineered ridge beam 10 metres long.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 28 Nov 2020, 14:42

Yes, I wasn't suggesting the OP just puts a pre-fab in. But they are surprisingly good and very quick to erect. My brother, before he got ill, put one in at the farm for his cars. Quite a bit bigger and he went for the much thicker insulation, but it still took the construction crew only 3 days to do a turnkey job (on established footings). It is officially a tractor shed and planning was not an issue as a building that is part of an established farm still.

In this case I would be having a chat with the planners via someone professional (as OP has said he is struggling with the forms).

I agree that you or I could make a timber building that size a bit cheaper, but that is valuing labour at no cost. If you have to turn down paid work to do the build, it becomes a real cost. It is time consuming and best done during the summer when it is warmer and the days are long. I've got all materials ready to do a building that is about 8 metres by 4 metres as I told myself I would do it during the winter. In reality I look outside and it is cold and wet and all enthusiasm vanishes :lol:
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 28 Nov 2020, 19:23

Thanks both. Reality is that this may need to wait a bit - want to see what the options are. At least getting the base sorted means i can have some machines under cover - ill try and make something semi secure to protect tools etc but lets see ....
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 28 Nov 2020, 19:32

Don't do too much temporary sorting out in there, Chaz. Those sorts of arrangements have a nasty habit of becoming permanent.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 28 Nov 2020, 20:15

Mike G wrote:Don't do too much temporary sorting out in there, Chaz. Those sorts of arrangements have a nasty habit of becoming permanent.


Understood. I'm hoping that pouring the base now to at least offer me some working space doesnt compromise any planning / stuff later. There are no 'foundations' so that might rule out some options in terms of build types however the concrete, depth and steelwork is hopefully good enough for some form of structure, even if we need to be inventive.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 02 Dec 2020, 12:10

Quick Question.

Assuming I have my base poured and once we do a full design, its preferred that we should have foundations and that the 150mm C30 Concrete plus steel is not good enough, is it possible to pour a foundation around the existing base?

I cant see why this shoulnt be possible but just wanted to get a view here.

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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 02 Dec 2020, 12:50

That will surely change the footprint? If it requires planning (size) and regs, then foundation design will need to be compliant. It doesn't take long to do a simple application. It's winter and not a great time for doing groundworks. Why not get the planning done and just do everything once. Cheaper in the end.
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Re: Chaz's Slightly Large Workshop Build

Postby Chaz » 02 Dec 2020, 19:19

AJB Temple wrote:That will surely change the footprint? If it requires planning (size) and regs, then foundation design will need to be compliant. It doesn't take long to do a simple application. It's winter and not a great time for doing groundworks. Why not get the planning done and just do everything once. Cheaper in the end.


Yes, will likely.

It will make it larger however the current base is slightly smaller than the footprint and conservative. The current structure overhangs the base so there is scope for something probably 200mm - 300mm wide without too much of a problem.

That said, looking at Mike's own foundation comment on his thread on another forum, he talks about 100mm thick concrete that is then 'deeper' at the edges. Any thoughts on suitability of my 150 mm thick C30 concrete with reinforced steel?

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