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David's Workshop Build

Roll up, roll up. Here you will find everything from new workshop designs, through builds to completed workshop tours. All magnificently overseen by our own Mike G and his tremendously thorough 'Shed' design and generous advice.

Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 17 May 2021, 15:11

I think the theory is that the rock hard pointing forms an impervious shelf every 3 inches up the wall, which water then sits on. That keeps the bottom edge of each brick damp. Wet bricks (and particularly differentially wet bricks) + a frost = possible spalling. Lime mortar allows the bricks to dry out more completely, and so the risk is much reduced.

There are complications with that, too, including the fact that old bricks were fired in wood-fired kilns, and so could vary enormously in their hardness (depending on where they were stacked). This makes older bricks more susceptible to frost than modern ones.....so any little thing which disturbs the equilibrium of an old wall is best avoided. If they were laid in lime originally, they should be pointed in lime now.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 17 May 2021, 15:27

Mike G wrote:NO! Mortar and concrete are 6 to 1 other than in exceptional circumstances. A concrete fillet tapering to zero is an exception, and 4 or 5 to 1 there would be better.....in that particular circumstance. I come across this a lot. I have no idea why people are being led into over-strong mortars in particular, which are a really bad, harmful idea. Over-strong concrete is a waste of money, but doesn't actually have a great downside structurally.

I'm a complete numpty, you even explicitly mentioned it! I will update the previous post now in case others come across it.

Woodbloke wrote:Our house was built in 1947 and for some strange reason, the entire South facing wall was constructed with what seemed to be almost pure sand as a mortar mix. I had to have it entirely re-pointed a few years ago which took a pair of brickies two days; at the rate I could do it, it would have taken me two years :lol: - Rob

Sounds expensive!

Mike G wrote:I think the theory is that the rock hard pointing forms an impervious shelf every 3 inches up the wall, which water then sits on. That keeps the bottom edge of each brick damp. Wet bricks (and particularly differentially wet bricks) + a frost = possible spalling. Lime mortar allows the bricks to dry out more completely, and so the risk is much reduced.

There are complications with that, too, including the fact that old bricks were fired in wood-fired kilns, and so could vary enormously in their hardness (depending on where they were stacked). This makes older bricks more susceptible to frost than modern ones.....so any little thing which disturbs the equilibrium of an old wall is best avoided. If they were laid in lime originally, they should be pointed in lime now.


I'm learning a lot today! Thanks for all the interesting infos.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby TrimTheKing » 17 May 2021, 15:29

Mike G wrote:I think the theory is that the rock hard pointing forms an impervious shelf every 3 inches up the wall, which water then sits on. That keeps the bottom edge of each brick damp. Wet bricks (and particularly differentially wet bricks) + a frost = possible spalling. Lime mortar allows the bricks to dry out more completely, and so the risk is much reduced.

There are complications with that, too, including the fact that old bricks were fired in wood-fired kilns, and so could vary enormously in their hardness (depending on where they were stacked). This makes older bricks more susceptible to frost than modern ones.....so any little thing which disturbs the equilibrium of an old wall is best avoided. If they were laid in lime originally, they should be pointed in lime now.


Makes sense Mike, thanks.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby AJB Temple » 17 May 2021, 16:03

This is quite a good and quick guide to lime mortars of various types https://www.lime-mortars.co.uk/lime-mor ... rtar-guide and is my "go to" reminder.

Very relevant to renders too where cementitious failure is pretty common. Friend of mine had front of his house re-rendered and the lot failed due to render being stronger than the wall. I think it was this bloke he used as the expert for the remedial claim: http://buildingdefectanalysis.co.uk/bri ... r-failure/

When we rendered our kitchen and utility room, the plasterer did it in 2 coats of lime render. There is more to this wall building lark than meets the eye.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby PAC1 » 17 May 2021, 16:52

Mike G wrote:I think the theory is that the rock hard pointing forms an impervious shelf every 3 inches up the wall, which water then sits on. That keeps the bottom edge of each brick damp. Wet bricks (and particularly differentially wet bricks) + a frost = possible spalling. Lime mortar allows the bricks to dry out more completely, and so the risk is much reduced.

There are complications with that, too, including the fact that old bricks were fired in wood-fired kilns, and so could vary enormously in their hardness (depending on where they were stacked). This makes older bricks more susceptible to frost than modern ones.....so any little thing which disturbs the equilibrium of an old wall is best avoided. If they were laid in lime originally, they should be pointed in lime now.


Last year I re pointed the south wall of my house.. Some idiot had repointed the wall with very strong cement mortar 20 years ago. So we had to dig out the cement mortar and cut out 200 bricks that had failed and were rapidly forming a honeycomb wall. There was a large difference in the hardness from brick to brick. I think a factor in this is that modern kilns control the temperature everywhere in a kiln, 200 years ago they just lit a fire and got on with it. Some just got hotter than others.
The wall also suffered from damp. Now I have repointed it and it has settled down we do not suffer from damp. An added benefit is that it is noticeable warmer.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Woodbloke » 17 May 2021, 17:22

Regex wrote:
Woodbloke wrote:Our house was built in 1947 and for some strange reason, the entire South facing wall was constructed with what seemed to be almost pure sand as a mortar mix. I had to have it entirely re-pointed a few years ago which took a pair of brickies two days; at the rate I could do it, it would have taken me two years :lol: - Rob


Sounds expensive!


It was; we had a new roof and chimney taken out at the same time :lol: - Rob
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 27 May 2021, 18:07

I am now fully committed to this venture; the old shed has been partially moved and the foundation has been laid bare to remind me to get on with it. Apparently timber and building supplies will soon be in short supply, so I will shortly place an order.

I sawed the old shed right in half, shored up the side and replaced some rotten bearing timbers. This is an old shed that will become a veranda of sorts.

shed_roll.JPG
Crusing along...
(566.7 KiB)


I took inspiration from the ancient Egyptians and rolled it along some long decking boards on round wooden posts. Getting this contraption around two corners and narrows gaps was not easy, let me tell you :lol:

Our cat did some tests to ensure the shed was balanced ok while I cleared out a space at the back.

balance_test.JPG
Cat balance
(338.51 KiB)


Here she is resting in her final location, to live out in retirement. I tacked on some stainless steel mesh I had lying about around the base of the shed, so it will now be well ventilated and bug/leaf litter free on the underside. The missus has grand plans to repaint it after I've nailed on some new featherboard, so the old shed will gain a new lease on life.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 27 May 2021, 18:26

Back to the new build...
I also have a question about the battens around the outside for attaching the feather boards:

25x50 are out of stock at my timber merchant, will either of the following sizes do?
- 22x50mm (narrower gap between cladding and feather boards)
- 25x38mm (hard to hit with a nail, more prone to splitting?)

I'm guessing it's the 25mm ventilation gap that's the important part.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby spb » 27 May 2021, 18:45

The main problem you'll have with 25x38 is where two cladding boards meet, and you'll need to nail both of them into a single counterbatten. 38mm doesn't give you much leeway in being far enough away from the end of the cladding but still hitting the batten.

Mike will have the last word on whether 22mm is enough, but intuitively I'd expect it to be close enough on a small building not in constant use.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 27 May 2021, 19:38

spb wrote:The main problem you'll have with 25x38 is where two cladding boards meet, and you'll need to nail both of them into a single counterbatten. 38mm doesn't give you much leeway in being far enough away from the end of the cladding but still hitting the batten.


Wouldn't the battens go on top of the cladding boards as per the image below?
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 27 May 2021, 19:57

There's some terminological stuff happening here. The cladding is the stuff on the very outside of the building. The boards you can see. The OSB is a sheathing board.......and it should be on the inside of the frame, not the outside (in the case of an insulated and heated building).

As spb said, the main problem with 25 x 38s is when you have to join two featheredge boards together. There just isn't enough width to do it well. If you think about it, each board would only get 19mm to land on, into which it has to fit a nail. That pushes the nails very close to the end of the boards.

22 or 25mm thickness makes no great difference on this scale of building, but as always, look at the junctions carefully, particularly how the boards meet the plinth.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 01 Jun 2021, 08:37

Thanks both for clarifying all these points, I'm learning a lot :)

Turns out the builders yard had 25x50 in stock, was just not up-to-date online. All ordered now, should have enough material to erect the basic structure.

For ripping and cutting all the timber and sheeting, would a flip table saw such as the following ELU TGS 173 be appropriate?
https://www.gumtree.com/p/power-saws/fl ... 1406296909

The tool looks a little older, not sure if that's a problem from a safety perspective?

I came across this post on UKWorshop and people seem to think they were good tools (that was 5 years ago though, things change fast in power tool land..)
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 01 Jun 2021, 14:00

I really would hesitate before buying a flip table-saw/ chop saw thingy. The ones I have seen (I've not seen this one) were very compromised, and second best at each job. I would buy a tool that's going to be useful in the long run, and maybe that's more likely a chop saw, or just use a couple of horses and a hand saw. It's very much quicker and easier than you'd think. The first house I built was a pseudo barn conversion, entirely boarded, and I did that by hand.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 01 Jun 2021, 14:09

Mike G wrote:I really would hesitate before buying a flip table-saw/ chop saw thingy. The ones I have seen (I've not seen this one) were very compromised, and second best at each job. I would buy a tool that's going to be useful in the long run, and maybe that's more likely a chop saw, or just use a couple of horses and a hand saw. It's very much quicker and easier than you'd think. The first house I built was a pseudo barn conversion, entirely boarded, and I did that by hand.


I think Lidl's Parkside Track Saw is coming up again on 6th June which might be of interest. Always heavy demand for these so you could quite likely sell on after the job if you did not want to keep it.

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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 02 Jun 2021, 22:38

9fingers wrote:I think Lidl's Parkside Track Saw is coming up again on 6th June which might be of interest. Always heavy demand for these so you could quite likely sell on after the job if you did not want to keep it.
Bob


Thanks for the headsup. You're right enough, it's in their leaflet. I'll make sure to be there first thing on Sunday!

Mike G wrote:I really would hesitate before buying a flip table-saw/ chop saw thingy. The ones I have seen (I've not seen this one) were very compromised, and second best at each job. I would buy a tool that's going to be useful in the long run, and maybe that's more likely a chop saw, or just use a couple of horses and a hand saw. It's very much quicker and easier than you'd think. The first house I built was a pseudo barn conversion, entirely boarded, and I did that by hand.


Thanks for the advice, I'll get a chop (plunge?) saw then. The one from lidl has a track too so will be useful for OSB.

As much as I'd like to mostly use hand tools for this project, I am also working my full time 9-5 day job, so I'll only have evenings and weekends. After putting on new cladding on my old shed last weekend I gained some valuable insight into how much time and effort it takes to rip down wood when you're also measuring and nailing. The angled cuts will also be useful for my rake walls.

On a side note, my materials have arrived :eusa-dance: Luckily I had some help from the other half, not easy getting 5m long pieces of timber round a tight right angle!
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 17 Jun 2021, 12:43

Just getting round to starting the base, I've placed some of the lintels for now.
base outline.JPG
(776.36 KiB)


I have a question about the lintels. They have a smooth and a rough side, and what looks like rebar through one side.
lintels.JPG
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Since I am placing DPC on top of the lintels, I guess it would be best to place the lintels rough side down?
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 17 Jun 2021, 12:49

The Rebar is there for the traditional application and is largely redundant for your use so smooth side to DPC seems sensible to me.

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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 20 Jun 2021, 22:20

Sounds good, I'll put them smooth side up.

I have been faffing around all weekend and not gotten started on bedding the lintels on mortar, I think I've been putting it off as I've never done something like this before and got no one to keep me right here. I've been using the rain as an excuse not to get started yet. Looking out the window it's absolutely bucketing it down so it's probably just as well I didn't do it yet or the mortar would get washed away :D

As I previously thought the telescopic vents (which I got from screwfix) are way too big, so I am just going to flip them upside down so I don't need to cut into my wall frame base plates.
Air vents.jpg
(257.78 KiB)


vent other side.JPG
(139.69 KiB)


Also the red air bricks that are slotted into the vents are loose and fiddly, so I may exclude them entirely and use them for another project.

Practicing my lines...

brick lines.JPG
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby MY63 » 21 Jun 2021, 07:22

Hi David
When I got to this point I set up my chop saw as a cutting station, I used the 150mm x 50mm for my ridge beam as the base for this between some cheap Lidl work benches. I could clamp stops to this easily for cutting.
I drew up a cutting list and cut most of the timber in one go using different coloured marker pens to identify where each piece went, my studs were all marked with blue I marked them as soon as they were cut it made life much easier for me.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 21 Jun 2021, 21:23

Hi Michael

Thanks for the tip, I'll make use of that so I don't keep running up and down the garden!

I've bedded down my first 4 lintels this evening, got 6 more to go. Might need to take a break for a few days as I bashed my fingers with the rubber mallet on the third one! ouch
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 27 Jun 2021, 21:56

That's all the lintels bedded, I seem to have done a good job on getting them square, even if one of the lintels is a bit squint (see if you can spot it)! The two diagonals are 439cm and 439.5cm, and by my calculations an 8ftx12ft rectangle should have a diagonal of 439.6cm so happy with that!
base.JPG
(554.65 KiB)

Also I was initially quite worried that my mortar was no good... 24h later, small left-over pieces could easily be crushed to dust by hand. However, some days later it seemed that the mortar had all cured hard which is good.
crumbly mortar.png
(2.14 MiB)


Mike, for the next part do I:
- put mortar then DPC then mortar again before I put the sole plate down (as per your diagram)
or...
- is it just DPC then mortar (as per one of your previous posts)
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Mike G » 27 Jun 2021, 23:46

I'm pretty sure that I've never put the DPC down directly on the brick. A slurry of mortar smooths out any irregularities, and ensures the DPC is undamaged by the pressure of the building on it.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 30 Jun 2021, 13:47

Mike G wrote:I'm pretty sure that I've never put the DPC down directly on the brick. A slurry of mortar smooths out any irregularities, and ensures the DPC is undamaged by the pressure of the building on it.


Ok that makes sense. I've watched some videos as well to help me understand it a bit better.

Mike G wrote:I think the theory is that the rock hard pointing forms an impervious shelf every 3 inches up the wall, which water then sits on. That keeps the bottom edge of each brick damp. Wet bricks (and particularly differentially wet bricks) + a frost = possible spalling. Lime mortar allows the bricks to dry out more completely, and so the risk is much reduced.


Back to the topic of spalling I just came across this video that illustrates this phenomenon perfectly:


This man's whole channel is quite interesting in terms of case studies of mis-diagnoised damp issues.
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby Regex » 21 Sep 2021, 09:18

Hi everyone

It's been a whille, life got in the way a bit and the build was delayed, but I have resumed work now (finally). It's a race against time now, what with the weather turning.

Some progress pics:
Base plates.jpg
(366.54 KiB)

Floor joists.jpg
(442.51 KiB)

Back wall.jpg
(218.72 KiB)


Thos floor boards are not fixed yet, they're just so I have a surface to work from.

Who knew hammering such large nails was such hard work?

The other walls are a bit more complicated. I was wondering if I have the stud walling planned correctly in the following plans, with regards to doors and windows. Anyone see any glaring issues?

Left wall.PNG
Left wall
(21.73 KiB)

front wall.PNG
Front wall
(49.44 KiB)

Right wall.PNG
Right wall
(24.2 KiB)


Thanks!
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Re: David's Workshop Build

Postby 9fingers » 21 Sep 2021, 16:24

Looks ok to me as a fairly competent hammer chewer.

Check the dimension of your cladding sheets to see if they are metric or imperial ( there are even some that are metric on one axis and imperial on the other.)
Once you know what you have, then maybe adjust some of the stud positions to lie exactly halfway across the joins in the sheets. A bit of planning save unnecessary cutting/joints flapping in the breeze.

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