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Photo Testing

Please list any and all bugs, feature requests etc in here and we can pick them up from one place. Only one bug/request per thread please, and make the title relevant so they are easy to pick out.

Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 12:04

iPhone II Pro has triple lenses, and was at the top for both portrait (top left) and landscape (top right) (ie volume button was at the bottom edge for landscape picture).

I have tried it both ways though - the forum still flips the pictures. Exif (at least as examined in fast raw viewer which I use as my photo sorter before sending to DXO for proper photos) records camera orientation correctly.

I don't think using the volume button instead of screen button makes any difference on the iPhone 11 Pro. I note that in the test above an iPhone 5 was being used. I imagine the software is quite different as there is several years between these models, but that's just guessing.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 12:49

iPhone 8 with the lens at the Top.





This is really strange. When I uploaded these pictures unedited (added text) the Portrait picture was on its side!? Since adding the text using the photos app on the phone it’s now the right way up.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Sheffield Tony » 06 May 2021, 13:02

I'm sure this is just that the forum software does not take note of the EXIF data burried in the jpeg files (because it is quite old). I imagine the differences you see are what people are doing to get their photo on here - if it ever gets opened and re-saved with a photo editing app or something that understands EXIF, it will probably be rotated as the EXIF data says. And hopefully the EXIF rotation set to zero ! So if you edit the image to put "Portrait" and "Landscape" in red text on top, they will almost certainly come out the right way up. If the file is direct from the camera, never read/saved, it will be whatever way up the imager was when the photo was taken.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 13:30

Yes, that makes sense. I’ve never had a problem before though with iPhone pictures taken Lanscape or Portrait. This site must be rotating portrait images for some reason?

This picture was taken with a FujiFilm MILC with the camera held UPSIDE Down! It appears upside down on the camera’s LCD but when transferred wirelessly to my iPad it imports it like this! :lol:
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 14:05

Mark and I have discussed this. One thing that is apparent is that EXIF data varies significantly depending on the device. I've done a comparison using three different iPhones, with one, two and three lenses, and data fields shown up in my library compiler show quite materially different things that may confuse phpBB. With quite old forum software which we all accept we must live with for now as Mark has enough on his plate, we probably have to accept that image rotation may be a bit erratic. Yoga neck exercises may be the answer.

For example, Mark finds that using the rotate icon in Photos / Preview for Mac, fixes upload issues for him using a slightly older iPhone (2 lens I think) but latest software. It doesn't on my 3 lens phone using the same software. We have been through in a bit of detail what we each do for image handling. When I get chance I will see if I can interfere with or just strip the exif data that gets uploaded and see what the forum software does.

It might get worse as people adopt new phones, as the latest generation can take raw images as well as JPEGs and will use a variety of compression tools to enable them to post online.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 15:18

Is this just a Portrait orientation issue? If so just inform folks of the problem and suggest they only upload Landscape format pictures? Just a thought.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 15:35

No. As my test shows, landscape disorientates as well. At least using camera rotation where the lens module stays at the top.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 17:07

I’ve had a few iPhones and never had a problem uploading Landscape photos.

iPhone held Landscape with Lens at the Top.



iPhone held Landscape upside down with the Lens at the bottom.



Both pictures uploaded directly from my iPhone.

I suggest you’re holding your phone upside down. ;)
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 17:10

Nope.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 17:15

Just for the sake of argument, try holding the phone Landscape with the lens at the top and post directly from your phone without using any photo editing software and see what happens. ;)

Edit: There’s a reason for it.

“Apple decided that when you capture a photo with the volume buttons facing skyward, like most people do since we're used to camera shutter buttons being on top, this is actually upside down”

https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-w ... ?r=US&IR=T
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 17:46

As I believe I have said, or at least said to Mark, I already did this.

My phone resides in a flip case. It opens to the left, so it is in fact awkward to use the volume button as a shutter release, but doubly so if the buttons are pointing upwards. Phone is not with me right now (charging) but I will have a play around tomorrow if I remember.

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Re: Photo Testing

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 May 2021, 17:55

Woodster wrote:Just for the sake of argument, try holding the phone Landscape with the lens at the top and post directly from your phone without using any photo editing software and see what happens. ;)

Edit: There’s a reason for it.

“Apple decided that when you capture a photo with the volume buttons facing skyward, like most people do since we're used to camera shutter buttons being on top, this is actually upside down”

https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-w ... ?r=US&IR=T


I’ve discussed this with Adrian and done a little digging since. The iPhone 11 behaves differently to previous models in how it registers and reports the EXIF data, as well as there being more EXIF data fields.

I think this is just something we are going to have to live with until I rebuild the forum on the latest version (which i did the base build of today).
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 06 May 2021, 18:10

Upside down phone photos are nothing new and nor is the fix. I suppose the latest phones may be different but for everyone else just hold it with the lens at the top. Anyone who’s had an iPhone for any time and posts pictures online knows this already.

https://iphonephotographyschool.com/iph ... side-down/
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 06 May 2021, 19:53

Woody - they are different. I have compared 11 pro with 7 (wife) and a 5S. Your fix works on the 7 and 5S.

It may be that the three and four lens phones are using interpolation that is beyond our current forum capability. Mark is snowed and I will live with it and if I want to do a WIP I will just process everything in DXO first. I would hate for you to miss my amazing work :lol:
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby TrimTheKing » 06 May 2021, 20:41

Woodster wrote:Upside down phone photos are nothing new and nor is the fix. I suppose the latest phones may be different but for everyone else just hold it with the lens at the top. Anyone who’s had an iPhone for any time and posts pictures online knows this already.

https://iphonephotographyschool.com/iph ... side-down/


We’ve tested it, they are not all behaving the same way!!!
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Andyp » 07 May 2021, 06:39

AJB Temple wrote:Woody - they are different. I have compared 11 pro with 7 (wife) and a 5S. Your fix works on the 7 and 5S.

It may be that the three and four lens phones are using interpolation that is beyond our current forum capability. Mark is snowed and I will live with it and if I want to do a WIP I will just process everything in DXO first. I would hate for you to miss my amazing work :lol:


Adrian, I am more than happy to rotate the odd image after posting if it helps.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 07 May 2021, 10:08

Thanks Andy. I know what you do with my threads 8-)

When I get time I will try setting up the laptop I mainly use for web browsing to use a picture editor by default that I can programme to strip the exif data and batch rename files. I need to do this anyway as I am building a picture laden website (nothing to do with wood). Might help, might not.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 07 May 2021, 10:31

TrimTheKing wrote:
Woodster wrote:
We’ve tested it, they are not all behaving the same way!!!


Have you tried just uploading the picture directly to the website though or is it still being processed through Fast Raw Viewer and DXO?

It appears that simple editing in Apples Photo software on the phone (or iPad) also ensures correct orientation so you could try that. It’s probably what many folks do anyway, cropping, exposure etc.

If you want to take account of what every third party photo editing software does to an image file I suspect you may be fighting a losing battle!!!! :D
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 07 May 2021, 11:26

Woody

As has been stated above. The photos sync directly from the iPhone into Photos (the Apple current incarnation of iPhoto). They can be opened in Photos and rotated there, or opened in Preview and rotated there, and we can try every variant of which way up to hold the phone, and the images still rotate sometimes (in fact usually) when uploaded here. Images are then placed on the desktop, renamed with a descriptive name, and then "chosen" for forum placement.

As noted above Mark and I have discussed this, both with our Macs open (multiple in my case as we checked the laptop I usually use for this forum), and have not yet found a reliable solution. I know your experience is different, but with respect you are using a different phone and most of the references you make to solutions date to circa 2014 or not current software. There have been six iterations of operating system since then and numerous IOS changes. It is a known problem with the latest iPhones but generally irrelevant since most modern forum software deals with exif data in a different way. The issue is probably that because current phones generate more exif fields, population in the forum software is confused. I have personally tested it through drag and drop forum software that I can control, and have no issue.

I am in the middle of producing a small book on garden development with my wife and so a large number of seasonal photos are taken with a Canon 5DIII and R5 mirrorless. These are very large files of raw images and so are processed through a library tool and then Photolabs DXO. I can process iPhoto JPEGS through this system as well, but generally do not as forum stuff is just snaps and Photos Mac sync is convenient.

It's not a really big deal and will be fixed for everyone (I am not alone) if and when Mark has time to upgrade the forum. He's busy and I respect that and will live with it. Hence it will not be mentioned by me again.

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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 07 May 2021, 12:11

You seem to have changed your regimen as you stated in an earlier post you were using Fast Raw Viewer and DXO.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the default setting for iPhone photos on later models is Not JPG but HEIF (High Efficiency Image Format). You can change this to JPG in the camera settings on your phone if you wish. If you want to keep it on HEIF this is not a problem if you select “Automatic” in the transfer section of photos. Images will then be exported as JPG’s.

The photos I uploaded to the site earlier were shot in HEIF on my iPhone and uploaded quickly without issue.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 07 May 2021, 13:07

Nope. Fast Raw Viewer is a quasi library tool for me in that I use it for sorting rather than storage: I use it because it renders raw images extremely fast (unlike photoshop or On1 or DXO etc) and so I can grade and sort. I then transfer the good stuff into DXO and process it. I have been consistent about that. Its actually DXO Photolab 4. I highly recommend Fast Raw Viewer to anyone who uses raw images a lot. It's a bit of a one trick pony, but it's only about £13 and will rapidly render large files, so you are not waiting around for a processing engine to slog through. Does jpegs too. Currently on offer: https://www.fastrawviewer.com

I'm glad that your software is working fine for you Woodster. This forum only accepts .jpg .png and .gif so jpeg files (or jpg - same thing) are what I use here. I agree HEIF is useful for sequence snaps, but still heavily compressed of course. I don't tend to use things like live view on the phone, and don't shoot vids on it, so I don't care much either way in the HEIF v JPEG arena. I don't use either of these on the actual cameras.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 07 May 2021, 14:54

I’m aware of what FRV and DXO are and what they do, I was just wondering why you alluded to using them earlier for your iPhone pictures. I use third party software for RAW pictures from my MILC but for iDevice pictures the preloaded Photos software is more than adequate and I’m sure helps prevent issues like you’re having. I’m sure you’ll sort it out.

For anyone else that may be having problems this explains what to do if you do take a picture with the phone upside down:

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/stop-ip ... 71667.html
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby Woodster » 07 May 2021, 16:33

Just out of personal interest I took another photo with my phone upside down and loaded it onto my iMac. I have a software package that has a very comprehensive EXIF tool so I had a look at the file data:
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 07 May 2021, 18:05

Thanks Woody. If I referred to DXO with reference to iPhone that was a mistake. I use Photos for that (as I thought I said a couple of times). Mark and I were using Photos to deal with the iPhoto pictures when we discussed it on the phone yesterday. As I mentioned I only use a laptop and auto sync to all Mac devices, so snaps go directly into Photos always.

I know you think it can, but for my images I know that this cannot be fixed in Photos with my iPhone. I can deal with it in DXO but was originally hoping to avoid that, the main reason being is that once processed in DXO I have to physically export each image to the storage or desktop location - I can't drag and drop to desktop from DXO (though they have just released a new version which I have not looked at yet). I use a script to move batch files from DXO, but I have only coded that to go to my website folder and don't want to muddle woodwork stuff in.

Incidentally, I did a trial on HEIC direct from iPhone 11 Pro. Forum software rejects HEIC files (unsurprisingly given its age) but in any case I usually use "most compatible" rather than "most efficient" in phone formats.

My phone will be swapped for a 12 in the summer and this one will go to my wife to replace her 7. I would be interested to know how that performs.
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Re: Photo Testing

Postby AJB Temple » 07 May 2021, 18:09

PS. I don't usually spend as much time on this stuff, but after concreting on Tuesday with a broken foot, which I could not get out of my wellie after 4 hours, my wife banned me from slab and workshop until tomorrow, so I am bored. ;)
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