New bench, well it’s a start.

[Cabinetman]

Finally made a start on my new bench today, new SCM Minimax combination machine fired up for a couple of test cuts, not as large or as powerful as I’m used to but I’m sure I will get used to it - after all I’m retired now and my times my own.
So the timber is 2” Ash, the piece I started on had evidence of very large woodworm burrows along the surface. I thought they would had been burrowing along under the bark in the sapwood. So a little annoyed to find the holes in the heartwood as well, and big buggers, about 7-8 mm across.
No evidence of live ones and as far as I can tell just in this one board.
The thing is I’ve treated woodworm in the past without knowing really if I was doing it right or the end result.
Paint it on the surface of the wood, does it soak down and kill them in the wood? Or do they die as they ingest it as they come near the surface? Either would do I suppose. Should I use this bit after treatment or use it for firewood? The holes wouldn’t be seen.
I thought I had bought plenty but after discounting knots shakes and sapwood I might only just have enough.
Have a look at the picture of the pile and you will see why I thought I had bought loads.

 

[Mike G]

Given the size of the holes, it may well not be woodworm as we know it. There are plenty of other things which eat wood. Death watch beetle, for instance. I think the treatment is best squirted down the holes with a syringe.

 

[meccarroll]

If you treat the wood it should be ok after. As Mike says it's probabily a beetle that has long since gone, I have some Mahogany that was imported from Africa over 30 years ago which had similar burrows in some of the sawn section but nothing has moved since arriving.

That SCM look more interesting is it brand NEW or just new to you? I have an SCM panel saw which is very well made so I expect your combination will serve you well. The only part of combinations that I don't quite like is where they usually place the spindle right in front of the saw blade. Does the saw blade retract enough for you to use the spindle or does it have to be removed? I have used a slot morticer which generally come on combination machines they are ver quick and give a nice clean cut. You could use it like a domino machine if you make your own dominos.

Regards Mark

 

[AJB Temple]

Clearly something wrong here. Table saws in America are not allowed to have blade guards according to every youtube video ever. :|

Nice to see you in action Ian.

 

[Cabinetman]

Given the size of the holes, it may well not be woodworm as we know it. There are plenty of other things which eat wood. Death watch beetle, for instance. I think the treatment is best squirted down the holes with a syringe.

The problem is the holes are completely full of woodworm excretion, and it’s rock solid, but still might be more absorbent than the actual timber, so worth a try.
At what point does the W/killer work though? Does it work by permeating the timber just after treatment or does it sit there waiting for the worms to come to the surface?
Ian

 

[Cabinetman]

Clearly something wrong here. Table saws in America are not allowed to have blade guards according to every youtube video ever. :|

Nice to see you in action Ian.

I had considered taking the riving knife and guard off for a joke photo but that meant spanners and not enough time.
I sold that other v old table saw to a very nice guy, he was looking at it and I showed him the template and piece of steel to make a knife for the saw, the look on his face was comical.
Ian

 

[Richard]

I think it's highly unlikely the damage you show is caused by common furniture beetle (sometimes known as woodworm). I'd be looking at more likely insects being, for example, emerald ash borer or a round-headed borer, the larval stage of one of the Cerambycidae beetle family. Slainte.

 

[Cabinetman]

I think it's highly unlikely the damage you show is caused by common furniture beetle (sometimes known as woodworm). I'd be looking at more likely insects being something like, for example, emerald ash borer or a round-headed borer, the larval stage of one of the Cerambycidae beetle family. Slainte.

Thanks Richard, what do you think about how woodworm killer works please.

 

[Cabinetman]

If you treat the wood it should be ok after. As Mike says it's probabily a beetle that has long since gone, I have some Mahogany that was imported from Africa over 30 years ago which had similar burrows in some of the sawn section but nothing has moved since arriving.

That SCM look more interesting is it brand NEW or just new to you? I have an SCM panel saw which is very well made so I expect your combination will serve you well. The only part of combinations that I don't quite like is where they usually place the spindle right in front of the saw blade. Does the saw blade retract enough for you to use the spindle or does it have to be removed? I have used a slot morticer which generally come on combination machines they are ver quick and give a nice clean cut. You could use it like a domino machine if you make your own dominos.

Regards Mark

Hi Mark, yes brand new. ( It’s a lot of machine for $6300 plus 1200 delivery grrr) I have a fs350 planer thicknesser back in the UK and have been absolutely delighted with it, - one of the main reasons I went for this mc really.
Never had, and always derided combination machines in the past, but this will do for me I’m sure, I’m already appreciating the fact that it’s on two large wheels and a substantial wheeled tow bar thing to move it around.
Yes the spindle is in line with the saw, they both move down below the table easily and I will be probably be using the spindle infrequently, the only thing that has to be removed is the crown guard which is one handscrew.
Your large panel saw is a beast, I have looked at them in the past, they are popular here with the kitchen cabinet makers who go though huge amounts of plywood etc. The Americans are slowly beginning to appreciate European equipment.
This is a relatively small mc with a 10” planer thicknesser, Tersa blades and as expected it’s really sweet to use and gives a superb finish.
I’ve never had a machine with a sliding table, and not sure I shall use it as it is intended, fasten a piece of wood to the slide and push it past the blade, seems a faf compared to an ordinary TS. But it will certainly come into its own for cross cutting and tenoning on the spindle.
Ian

 

[AJB Temple]

That is quite a lot of machine for the money (leaving delivery aside). I would like something like that, but my present workshop is just not wide enough. Having been a pro, and clearly not planning to give up woodwork any time soon, what do you see yourself making in your new shop Ian?

 

[Cabinetman]

Well to start with Pam’s Daughter needs a full set of shutters for her house in Williamsburg plus a copy of this French antique island/table which I am really looking forward to getting my teeth into.
The saw needs about 6 feet of width, but obviously if you are crosscutting you need to add the wood onto that. I had this problem in mr last pro workshop and resorted to dragging the saw round 90 degrees, it would be a lot easier with this one as it’s on proper wheels.
Also Adrian I have seen these for sale new in the uk for just over 4K!

 

[Blackswanwood]

Ian, in the UK there are three types of woodworm killer. Growth regulators which stop the grub from maturing into a beetle and breeding, neuro toxins which kill all insects by paralysing them and biostats which stops them getting any nourishment from their food so they starve. The problem with each one is getting it to the grub.

The Common furniture beetle only lives for a few weeks and eats no wood. They may continue to emerge for a few years after treatment - having the chosen treatment soaked into the wood that they eat on the way out is what gets them and breaks the breeding cycle.

Cheers

Robert

 

[Jonathan]

Ian, congratulations on the new saw.

In 2014 I made the change from cabinet saw to sliding table saw, and it's different.But I wouldn't go back now.
I keep the crosscut fence on the slider permanently and use it for all finish cuts, if set accurately everything ends up dead square. I still check glue ups for square, but no need as everything clamps up dead square.
Straight line ripping is a joy and perfect every time.
Would highly recommend Fritz and Fran jigs on the slider for small cuts.
I will shut up before it sounds like I'm a sliding table saw evangelist.

Looking forward to seeing your new projects evolve.

Jonathan.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using Tapatalk

 

[Trevanion]

Those large burrows are a very common sight on the waney edges of American Ash, never had it go any further into the heartwood though so that's unusual. As others have said, any treatment will only be surface-level, preventing eggs from being planted and killing the bugs as they exit.

 

[meccarroll]

Hi Mark, yes brand new. ( It’s a lot of machine for $6300 plus 1200 delivery grrr)...I’ve never had a machine with a sliding table, and not sure I shall use it as it is intended, fasten a piece of wood to the slide and push it past the blade, seems a faf compared to an ordinary TS. But it will certainly come into its own for cross cutting and tenoning on the spindle.
Ian

Thank you for the reply Ian, the sliding table will come into it's own in time. It really looks to be a very nice machine.

It will be nice to see how you get along with it making your future projects.

 

[Cabinetman]

Ian, in the UK there are three types of woodworm killer. Growth regulators which stop the grub from maturing into a beetle and breeding, neuro toxins which kill all insects by paralysing them and biostats which stops them getting any nourishment from their food so they starve. The problem with each one is getting it to the grub.

The Common furniture beetle only lives for a few weeks and eats no wood. They may continue to emerge for a few years after treatment - having the chosen treatment soaked into the wood that they eat on the way out is what gets them and breaks the breeding cycle.

Cheers

Robert

I’m sorry all, I really should have said I was in America.
Robert,thank you for that informative post, so am I correct in what you’re saying, that they will still emerge though the surface but then won’t be able to create offspring? Ok well that’s a shame. Well I don’t want these monsters emerging through the newly finished bench top so maybe firewood it is.

Ian, congratulations on the new saw.

In 2014 I made the change from cabinet saw to sliding table saw, and it's different.But I wouldn't go back now.
I keep the crosscut fence on the slider permanently and use it for all finish cuts, if set accurately everything ends up dead square. I still check glue ups for square, but no need as everything clamps up dead square.
Straight line ripping is a joy and perfect every time.
Would highly recommend Fritz and Fran jigs on the slider for small cuts.
I will shut up before it sounds like I'm a sliding table saw evangelist.

Looking forward to seeing your new projects evolve.

Jonathan.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using Tapatalk

That’s interesting thank you Jonathan, I suppose I may get used to it, just seems time consuming to fasten the wood down each time, also I wouldn’t have been able to do this Ash as the pieces are to long for the travel of the slider. But I definitely agree about the cross slide, I have always had one on my Sedgwick.
Sliding table saw evangelist, that might just be the first time those four words have ever been used together lol.
Ian

 

[GaryR]

Ian, that looks like what we would call powder post beetle damage. There are several families that are called powder post or powderpost beetles. I don't know enough to distinguish them by their damage but this publication gives some clues.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/IG119

The usual treatment is borate salts dissolved either in water (common brand is Tim-Bor) or in glycols (common brand is Bora-Care). Both require the insects to eat it before they can succumb so if there is a live infestation it might take awhile and there may be further damage before they all die.

The good things about borate salts is that they are inexpensive, last forever (unless exposed to rain that washes them away), are odorless, are non-toxic to vertebrates, and don't require a permit to apply. For my shed I doused all the green, rough sawn timbers with the aqueous version and the dried and milled beams that would be hidden got another spray with the glycol version.

There are fumigants that work faster but you probably would need a permit to use them and it would be much more trouble.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thank you Gary that was extremely useful, reading that article makes me think its old house borer. Not sure if they are still in there so I’m going to cut a sacrificial piece up into tiny slices to find out. Also I will be getting some of the treatment you recommended.
Again thanks, Ian

 

[Jonathan]

Ian, I generally don't fasten anything down mechanically, apart from cutting tenons or thin rips, as your probably aware as a carpenter you develop very strong hands and they do the clamping.
Regards straight line ripping timbers longer than the slider, you can use a sled running in the t slot on the slider to give extra length, this is just one of the various ways to overcome a short slider.

Sent from my Redmi Note 9S using Tapatalk

 

[Mike]

Nice saw, Ian. I had briefly considered one of the combination saws, but it would not be practical with my shop layout if I wanted to process boards longer than two meters through the spindle moulder or the P/T. I realized I would be limited in sheet goods, but I do all of the long ripping longer than two meters with the track saw. I can maneuver the SCM FS30G and Elektra Beckum TF904 around the shop as needed to use the doorway for longer material.

If you fee adventurous, you might consider adding a positioner to the sliding table. I have yet to finish the Fritz and Franz jig I started, but have not used the rip fence on the saw since building this positioner.

Here is a build thread on Sawmill Creek showing how I built it.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php ... liding-Saw

 

[AJB Temple]

Is that all in the basement shop Mike? Looks a good set up. I remember the saw saga you had.

 

[Mike]

Is that all in the basement shop Mike? Looks a good set up. I remember the saw saga you had.

Yes, I now have two shop sections (half of the basement), which we now call "The Bunker", after my wife saw me struggling with a small project and using the rip side of the saw as the assembly table. We cleared out a LOT of treasures (junk) that had been untouched for at least ten years and created another 5 x 5 meter shop section for the hand tools and small powered tools. This is where my 2 x 1 meter MFT-style workbench and Sjöbergs bench are. Anything that requires the large dust extraction stays in the original 4.5 x 5 meter shop, but anything that can be connected to the CT vacuum goes in the new section.

With the exception of the SC2C sliding saw and the mitre saw workstation, all of the other machines are mobile and can be moved anywhere in the basement to clear space for the other machines as needed. So far, this arrangement works well. The only restriction is anything coming into or going out of the shop must go down or up the stairs, which makes two 90-degree turns.

I had to dismantle the SC2C saw into smaller assemblies in order to make it light enough to move with two people and a chain hoist connected to the upper treads. One of the items in the saw was a concrete weight (Stone of Destiny?) used to balance the fully loaded sliding deck.

 

[Richard]

Thanks Richard, what do you think about how woodworm killer works please.

Typical common furniture beetle treatments are liquid permethrin chemical pesticides. It's a contact pesticide that passes through the adult insect’s outer layer or cuticle into the body as it emerges from the wood and primarily affects the nervous system. It is not a poison needing ingestion; emerging adults merely chew their way out from their pupating chamber just below the wood surface and they do not feed, hence the importance of using a contact type poison. The same poison will kill larvae emerging from the egg assuming the egg is not too deep, and it can kill larvae near the wood surface, and it does discourage adult females from laying eggs. A typical flooding application of the poison to the whole wood surface results in penetration into the wood of between 2- 6 mm, and frequently two or three floodings are required to achieve this sort of penetration into the wood fibres. Repeat doses are required over a long period to be effective; a heavy infestation can take three to five years to eradicate. Robert (Blackswanwood) provided good additional information.

But, as I said before, I'm pretty sure you don't have a common furniture beetle infection; the tunnels are much too big in diameter. I'd be looking, if I was you, at the alternative insect types as I mentioned earlier, e.g., perhaps one of the beetles in the Cerambycidae family, for example, which is not an identification of the beetle type on my part. Slainte.

 

[Cabinetman]

Now, I just knew you would know Richard, as ever most informative thank you.
Beginning to think that as I haven’t started to build the bench yet I will discard anything that’s wormy, they could be chewing away for a long long time yet. Just need to get off my butt and find another supply of 2” Ash.
Ian

 

[Richard]

Try this image linked below for comparison of the tunnel and detritus left behind: https://www.forestryimages.org/browse/d ... um=1540024
It belongs to the family Cerambycidae. Slainte.

 

[AJB Temple]

Why do you want to use Ash Ian? What are the plentiful timbers in your State?

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks Richard , that does look a lot like it, I will dig deeper into that tomorrow.

I’ve always liked working with Ash, I prefer English but American is good too, for a bench I would have preferred Beech but it’s rare around here, lots of Red Oak which I quite like, a lot of people decry it.
Also White Oak but it grows more quickly and isn’t as nice as European in my view. Cherry is in good supply, haven’t tried it here yet, in fact I’ve only tried it once back home with poor results.
Maple both ordinary and hard are available as is Walnut, both a bit too good for a bench I think
Ash for a bench is a reasonable choice in my opinion, it’s fairly high up the hardness list, plentiful and reasonably priced.
Ian

 

[kirkpoore1]

Ian:

Whatever your bug is, it's not emerald ash borer, which apparently eats the living layer between the bark and the sapwood. I've seen holes like that in in ash (and red oak) but never found a living insect--it may be that it only eats moist wood. it's probably long gone. A few holes in a workbench wouldn't bother me at all, but if you have so many it weakens the structure I'd burn that piece.

Kirk

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks Kirk, yes as it’s not too much it will probably go on the fire, I suspect you’re correct about them being long gone as well. The timber was stored outside in open ended shipping containers for a couple of years at the mill, and with the summer sun on the metal the wood is bone dry, I’m bringing my moisture meter back with me as I’m sure it’s well on it’s way to being dessicated, I just about gave up trying to hand plane one board, —can wood be too dry?
Ian

 

[Richard]

I’m sure it’s well on it’s way to being dessicated, I just about gave up trying to hand plane one board, —can wood be too dry? Ian

Well, wood certainly gets stronger and stiffer the drier it is. So it's normal to find very dry wood at, say 4% MC is harder to work than wood with higher moisture content as many a woodworker knows already. It's my understanding (which may not be absolutely correct) that below about 5% MC machining wood, whilst not impossible, leads to things like fuzziness and splintering type breaks in the grain. Working such dry material by hand I suspect might be difficult, e.g., planing. Slainte.

 

[AndyT]

When I was making my bed out of ash, I bought most of it air dried, from Wentwood Timber in Wales, then kept it indoors until it was stable, but definitely not over dried. It was a pleasure to work and planed well.

I didn't buy quite enough however and topped up with a couple of boards of kiln dried American ash from Yandles. Rob Stoakley had warned me about this wood. When selecting it, I rejected plenty of boards which were very lightweight. Even so, the two I bought were much less pleasant to use, more splintery and brittle than the others.

They'd have been perfectly ok for the underneath structure of a bench but not great for a top, especially if you wanted to flatten it by hand planing.

If I'd bought the lighter boards I think I would have needed a belt sander.

 

[Cabinetman]

Thanks you two, that certainly lines up with my experience, I’ve used loads of Ash in the past in the uk, both English and American and have always found it to be pleasant to work with.

 

[Woodbloke]

I didn't buy quite enough however and topped up with a couple of boards of kiln dried American ash from Yandles. Rob Stoakley had warned me about this wood. When selecting it, I rejected plenty of boards which were very lightweight. Even so, the two I bought were much less pleasant to use, more splintery and brittle than the others.

They'd have been perfectly ok for the underneath structure of a bench but not great for a top, especially if you wanted to flatten it by hand planing.

If I'd bought the lighter boards I think I would have needed a belt sander.

Those 'murrican kiln dried Ash boards at Yandles are very tempting Andy, as they're offered at a quite respectable price, so you can buy a lot of wood for your money, but to my dismay I found the stuff generally very difficult to work with. That said, I've got a few bits of superb air dried English Ash under the bench, ready for another JK cabinet; the difference between the two is 'night n'day' - Rob

 

[duke]

Well to start with Pam’s Daughter needs a full set of shutters for her house in Williamsburg plus a copy of this French antique island/table which I am really looking forward to getting my teeth into.
The saw needs about 6 feet of width, but obviously if you are crosscutting you need to add the wood onto that. I had this problem in mr last pro workshop and resorted to dragging the saw round 90 degrees, it would be a lot easier with this one as it’s on proper wheels.
Also Adrian I have seen these for sale new in the uk for just over 4K!

View attachment 25502

When are you starting this Ian? Looking forward to WIP.

 

[Cabinetman]

@duke Well I’m sorry but it will be a good while I’m afraid as I’m back in the UK till August and then when I get back I shall be working on the bench. I will definitely be doing a wip for that, and I’m hoping that the innovative features will pique people’s interest, I am itching to get going on it!
Only then will I be able to start on the shutters and the table in between coming back to the UK so it’s going to be a fair old time!
Ian