Trivet in chestnut, mirror frame test.

[AndyP]

I need to make a mirror frame for our entrance hall which will hang close to the chestnut bench/stool that I made earlier ( http://thewoodhaven2.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=1260#p1260 )

Wood will be chestnut and I would like to incorporate some walnut accents to compliment the stool. Mirror is 27.5" x 11.75". Frame will be 2"x1".

In order to test my mitering skills and to see how the Veritas frame clamps works I made a trivet as a test piece.
It is 7.5"x 7.5". made with the same size chestnut.

Instead of the more usual splines (or is it feathers) cut into the corner edge I inset them in the face, across the corner. For the mirror frame I will use walnut but I did not have enough for this test piece so used some mahogany-ish redwood





What do you think? Good idea or not? Comments welcome.

I may have to do another test with butt joints reinforced by dowels and run the inlay across the frame in a couple of places. Up to the chief design consultant to make up her mind.

 

[Pinch]

I like that Andy - cracking idea!

The frame is almost giving a kind of illusional feel with the inlay and with a mirror inserted into the middle will be top drawer.

 

[DaveL]

Looks good to me. I have use strips like that on the back of a picture frame, having see yours on the face I may well use them on the face next time.

 

[AndyP]

I like that Andy - cracking idea!

The frame is almost giving a kind of illusional feel with the inlay and with a mirror inserted into the middle will be top drawer.

Yeah with the gain running like it fooled the missus into thinking that it was not square.

 

[Woodbloke]

Nice looking job Andy, but splines as you've done them there are technically not as strong as there's no long grain/long grain gluing surfaces (except on the edge) I'd have biscuited the mitres first of all and then done the mitre splines - Rob

 

[AndyP]

Rob, good point.

As a biscuit jointer is not currently on by wish list perhaps I could make do with dowels but somehow I do not think that I could get them to line up.

Do you think that there is a chance that the joint would fail when scaled up to hold a 4mm mirror (27"x11")?

 

[Woodbloke]

Do you think that there is a chance that the joint would fail when scaled up to hold a 4mm mirror (27"x11")?

I think if you did the same sort of spline on the reverse side as well (but obviously closer to the corner) that would probably give you sufficient strength. Dowels would be good as well, but as you say, lining the little bu$%ers up is the hard part - Rob

 

[Wizard9999]

Andy

For me personally it isn't my favourite as the darker wood detail is a bit over-scale versus the size of the piece, but that is a matter of personal taste, but if I read correctly the actual frame will be four times as big, which if the splines remain the same scale as in the trivet it may actually be more to my taste. The execution is very nice and if this was the test piece I am sure the actual mirror will be very nicely made.

One thought is whether you could work the splines so the run the full depth of the side of the frame to create the illusion the splines are sandwiched into the wood forming the frame? Of course, this approach may have technical issues I am not aware of.

Terry.

 

[AndyP]

Thanks Terry,
I shall sleep on this one for a few days while she makes up her mind. I may have to do another text piece.

 

[Phil]

Andy, I like the grain and the splines.

Why not biscuit the corners? I made a couple of mirror frames with biscuits. Got a biscuit bit for the router and used the router table.

Cheers
Phil

 

[chataigner]

You could always fit biscuits using a router. I use a cutter of the appropriate thickness to cut the slots and locking the plunge mechanism ensures exactly consistent depth and therefore alignment. Cut the slots a little long to allow the mitres to be slid into alignment, the veritas "corners" hold them aligned (wonderful thing the veritas framing clamp - been using one for years).

Add your surface splines later for decoration only. Who needs a biscuit jointer ?

 

[AndyP]

Do you think that there is a chance that the joint would fail when scaled up to hold a 4mm mirror (27"x11")?

I think if you did the same sort of spline on the reverse side as well (but obviously closer to the corner) that would probably give you sufficient strength. Dowels would be good as well, but as you say, lining the little bu$%ers up is the hard part - Rob

Rob, thanks. I like the idea of adding a second of splines on the reverse as I already have the necessary tools and skills.

 

[AndyP]

Andy, I like the grain and the splines.
Why not biscuit the corners? I made a couple of mirror frames with biscuits. Got a biscuit bit for the router and used the router table.
Cheers
Phil

Phil thanks. The additional cost of another router cutter and biscuits plus the learning curve and inevitable test runs to get in right puts me off this idea for now. If I make any more frames like this I may just have to invest.

 

[AndyP]

You could always fit biscuits using a router. I use a cutter of the appropriate thickness to cut the slots and locking the plunge mechanism ensures exactly consistent depth and therefore alignment. Cut the slots a little long to allow the mitres to be slid into alignment, the veritas "corners" hold them aligned (wonderful thing the veritas framing clamp - been using one for years).

Add your surface splines later for decoration only. Who needs a biscuit jointer ?

Thanks David, if I were going to use biscuits I think I would be happier using the table but for now I will go for the extra set of splines on the reverse. Providing of course I get design approval.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Andy

There's little to no setup required for a biscuit slot cutting router bit. Just set it at approximately the mid depth of the thickness and ensure you cut from the same face each time, it's simple as peas…

I have a cutter and biscuits that I'm unlikely to use any time between now and when my workshop is built so am happy to post over to you if you want?

Cheers
Mark

 

[Rod]

I think the dark splines distract from the appearance though I realise in the finished frame they will be a lot smaller?

Rod

 

[AndyP]

Andy

There's little to no setup required for a biscuit slot cutting router bit. Just set it at approximately the mid depth of the thickness and ensure you cut from the same face each time, it's simple as peas…

I have a cutter and biscuits that I'm unlikely to use any time between now and when my workshop is built so am happy to post over to you if you want?

Cheers
Mark

Mark, thanks for the offer. If I was going to biscuit with the router I would prefer to do it on the table as in my inexperienced hands I feel the table gives me less opportunity to mess it up. However if I did use the table I would have to turn each piece over to cut the slots in the mitre. Not a problem if I get them spot on the middle and I suppose a slight depth variation could easily be planed away. I'll have to ponder this one. Or is this pontificate?

 

[AndyP]

I think the dark splines distract from the appearance though I realise in the finished frame they will be a lot smaller?
Rod

Rod, the walnut splines that I hope to use in the actual mirror will be quite a bit lighter than the red wood I used on the test.

On a lighter note the problem with having an open discussions on such a subject is I end up with more reasons to either buy more kit, try something I've never done before or delay making something still further while I weigh up all the previously unforeseen options. .

I like the process though as it gives the grey matter something to think about so thank you all for the contributions so far.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Andy

There's little to no setup required for a biscuit slot cutting router bit. Just set it at approximately the mid depth of the thickness and ensure you cut from the same face each time, it's simple as peas…

I have a cutter and biscuits that I'm unlikely to use any time between now and when my workshop is built so am happy to post over to you if you want?

Cheers
Mark

Mark, thanks for the offer. If I was going to biscuit with the router I would prefer to do it on the table as in my inexperienced hands I feel the table gives me less opportunity to mess it up. However if I did use the table I would have to turn each piece over to cut the slots in the mitre. Not a problem if I get them spot on the middle and I suppose a slight depth variation could easily be planed away. I'll have to ponder this one. Or is this pontificate?

Why would you need to turn the pieces over Andy?

The biscuit cutter is intentionally used to cut elongated slots and you could easily slot mitres on both ends of a workpiece, on the table, without turning the piece. It would just need rotating end for end.

Cheers
Mark

 

[AndyP]

Why would you need to turn the pieces over Andy?
The biscuit cutter is intentionally used to cut elongated slots and you could easily slot mitres on both ends of a workpiece, on the table, without turning the piece. It would just need rotating end for end.
Cheers
Mark

If I wanted to joint like this

then surely I could not keep the same face on the router table when cutting the slots in each end.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Yeah, you just change the angle of your mitre gauge or whatever support you use.

Cheers
Mark

 

[9fingers]

Mark is correct Andy!
You must keep the same face as reference for both halves of the joint irrespective of using the router table or a BJ

Bob

 

[AndyP]

Sorry guys, I am in no doubt that you are right, I just can't picture in my head how this is done.

As you can see the router table is acting as lathe stand at the moment so I mocked up what I can see in my head using a piece of angled extrusion as a fence.
I had assumed that I would pass each side of the frame along the fence to make the cut.


To do the other end I would have to turn it over, wouldn't I?


Even if I used the mitred guide I would still need to turn the piece over to do the other end.




Sorry to be so dim. I must be doing something wrong but what?

 

[TrimTheKing]

To use the slot cutting bit you would run the two cut faces of the mitre (eg the faces to be joined) along the fence.

Does that make sense?

Cheers
Mark

 

[Rod]

Cannot you make a jig and use your table saw?

Here's one I used for fixing splines to some boxes

 

[AndyP]

Sorry Rod we appear to be at cross purposes here.

I wanted to make a mirror frame as per the Trevit in my OP. Rather than use conventional splines to reinforce the mitres, as you have demonstrated, I wanted to run them across the face of the joint as in my test piece.
Rob (woodbloke) pointed out that this would not be such a strong joint and maybe biscuiting the mitres first would add strength.
It is the process of adding biscuits like this

using the router table that is taxing my poor little brain as I cannot see how I can keep the same face on the table while cutting the slots in the mitres at both ends.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Hi Andy

Does this make any more sense…?



This is the same piece of wood, same face up (or down as you choose) just rotated through 180deg.

Now doing it the same as this would give you a through slot which you don't want, so you would slowly sink the workpiece onto the cutter, then move forwards a marked distance to give you your slot, then withdraw the workpiece from the cutter.

Cheers
Mark

 

[Rod]

Yes Andy I realise that but you could make the spline out of the same wood.
You've got the gear to do that - just think of the spline as an exposed biscuit?
People very rarely look at frame corner edges anyway?

Rod

 

[TheTiddles]

Deleted

 

[Phil]

Andy, it is really P I S easy to do.

Take some scrap, follow the drawing from Mark, some careful hand control and you have two biscuit slots.

Just mark carefully where the slots start and end, which depends on the width of the timber and the size biscuit you are going to use. I just mark with some white chalk.

Cheers
Phil

 

[AndyP]

Hi Andy

Does this make any more sense…?



This is the same piece of wood, same face up (or down as you choose) just rotated through 180deg.

Now doing it the same as this would give you a through slot which you don't want, so you would slowly sink the workpiece onto the cutter, then move forwards a marked distance to give you your slot, then withdraw the workpiece from the cutter.

Cheers
Mark

Thanks Mark
Bloody obvious now Can senility creep in at only 53?

Still not sure if I want to go that route but at least I now understand how.

 

[Wizard9999]

Thanks Mark
Bloody obvious now Can senility creep in at only 53?

Still not sure if I want to go that route but at least I now understand how.

I wouldn't worry Andy, I didn't completely get it until I saw the picture, picture says a thousand words and all that...

...unless senility can also sneak up on you at 47.

Terry.

 

[Phil]

Still not sure if I want to go that route but at least I now understand how.

Go on Andy, try it.

We all know you want to!

Go for it Andy! Go for it Andy! :text-bravo:

Cheers
Phil