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Fixing conundrum

RogerS

RogerS

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Probably ten years ago, I veneered this ply as part of a veneering course.
20250101_121303.jpg

and I always had in mind to turn it into a tray.

I laminated these handles - bird's eye maple and walnut - and it's the fixing that is causing me some issues.


20250101_121337.jpg

and a couple of walnut edging strips.

I was originally thinking about a 4mm vertical domino and a 'socket' domino'd into the underside of the handles. Registration will be a challenge for me, I think, because there is no easy way of holding the handle to the tray. locking it in place and then machinig the slot without it all going pear-shaped.

There is a slight gradient on the underside of the handle
20250102_110357.jpg

and I'm thinking about relieving the top of the tray to accomodate that so there is a better glue area and also removing the veneer which is necessary as the hide glue could give away if I don't.

But will that be enough?

Just thought of another easier idea and that is to drill four 3mm holes from the underneath into the handle taking care not to break out on top then using 3mm set screws glued in. Much easier to do with a drill than a large Domino machine, I reckon.

What do you folks think ?
 
I think that would lend itself very well to using decorative copper rivets. These could be made out of copper roofing nails push through from underneath in a shallow rebate so the nail head is flush, and peen the top over with a wide socket nail punch, perhaps onto a copper washer.
 
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You could tenon the handle through the sides of the walnut side rails also put a groove in the walnut side rails and glue the side rails onto the veneered bottom. I made some trays that way several years ago when I lived at home and they worked out ok. When you think may old chairs had very small tenons holding them together with no problem. Mark
 
Are you attaching the handles to the top of the tray rather than the sides? Would fixing horizontally through the sides of the handles not provide a stronger fixing? Through dowels in a dark wood to match the the tray or screw and plug.
 
I think I'd be inclined to go with Adrian's suggestion of decorative rivets, but I'd also plane flat sections on the undersides of the handles to give a proper mating surface with the tray.

My second choice would be to tenon them into the sides. You could of course do both at the same time if you don't fully trust either of them.
 
How about dowels, or square pegs, though both handle and tray. Even left knobbly proud might look nice. If extra security might be necessary then a thin 3 or 4mm dowel through the side of the handle and through the tray each through the dowel.
 
AJB Temple said:
I think that would lend itself very well to using decorative copper rivets. These could be made out of copper roofing nails push through from underneath in a shall rebate so the nail head is flush, and peen the top over with a wide socket nail punch, perhaps onto a copper washer.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the suggestion, Adrian, but I'm not to keen on any metalwork visible in the top of the design.
 
meccarroll said:
You could tenon the handle through the sides of the walnut side rails also put a groove in the walnut side rails and glue the side rails onto the veneered bottom. I made some trays that way several years ago when I lived at home and they worked out ok. When you think may old chairs had very small tenons holding them together with no problem. Mark
Click to expand...
My bad picture, sorry, Mark. I ike the idea but there's not enough height in the side rails
 
Malc2098 said:
How about dowels, or square pegs, though both handle and tray. Even left knobbly proud might look nice. If extra security might be necessary then a thin 3 or 4mm dowel through the side of the handle and through the tray each through the dowel.
Click to expand...
Thanks Malc. That one's got legs.
 
RogerS said:
Thank you for the suggestion, Adrian, but I'm not to keen on any metalwork visible in the top of the design.
Click to expand...
However you fix the laminations to the veneered frame, the tray could at some time be carrying some weight or even something of value; you definitely don't want the handle to depart company from the base. That said you need some sort of mechanical fixing 'twixt the two. Malc's idea above is a goer but I might consider another metalwork option and that's to use a cs screw through the bottom and a polished, domed brass nut/washer on the upper surface. I used these:

IMG_4210.jpeg

...on the Japanese style box/cabinet thingie I finished last year which SWIMBO has now adorned with a silk flower arrangement form a maiko. If the brasswork has been highly polished, it becomes a feature of the project rather than an eyesore. Just me two euros worth - Rob
 
A tapered dowel through the top of the handle into the tray base.

Perhaps a constructed cruciform laminated one to compliment the existing colour theme.
 
Malc2098 said:
How about dowels, or square pegs, though both handle and tray. Even left knobbly proud might look nice. If extra security might be necessary then a thin 3 or 4mm dowel through the side of the handle and through the tray each through the dowel.
Click to expand...
Yes this the sort of thing I was thinking of, four turned pieces wide at the bottom to be feet goingup through the tray and handle with a decorative wedge through on top to tighten it up.
Ian
 
The tray will be in daily use with my dinner on it! But I really don't like idea of any visible metal.

I like the idea of a dowel especially one made from a cruciform to complement the existing colour theme but cutting out a cruciform hole ? Way beyond my skillset. Lightyears away. Ditto- tapering a round hole is also beyond my skillset. And I don't have a lathe. But a straightforward dowel from walnut turned by ??? would work.
 
Turn up some 'shallow domed' pegs in walnut and mount through handle glued into base.

rivet.jpg

Sorry, Posts Crossed. !!
 
RogerS said:
The tray will be in daily use with my dinner on it! But I really don't like idea of any visible metal.

I like the idea of a dowel especially one made from a cruciform to complement the existing colour theme but cutting out a cruciform hole ? Way beyond my skillset. Lightyears away. Ditto- tapering a round hole is also beyond my skillset. And I don't have a lathe. But a straightforward dowel from walnut turned by ??? would work.
Click to expand...
A small simple thing could be turned in your pillar drill, ( seen but not done).
 
Meal trays have a hard life. Hot plates, spillages, constantly getting wet. Will the veneer be up to that?
 
AJB Temple said:
Meal trays have a hard life. Hot plates, spillages, constantly getting wet. Will the veneer be up to that?
Click to expand...
Good point. Rustin's Plastic Coating to the fore ! Actually I've never spilled anything, nor any liquid and our plates never retain their heat smile.png
 
RogerS said:
Good point. Rustin's Plastic Coating to the fore ! Actually I've never spilled anything, nor any liquid and our plates never retain their heat View attachment 31021
Click to expand...
I use finishing resin to pore fill my instrument bodies and necks, which include veneers. That could be a durable finish on your veneer.
 
Just let me know if you want pegs or tapered dowels turned Roger. The narrow step drills do a reasonable job of a taper you just need to clean off the ridges if a deep hole. You can pick up a very cheap set of 3 on ebay. Amazon etc.


www.ebay.co.uk

Step Drill Bit Set Cone Hole Cutter 3Pcs Set 4-20mm 3-12mm 4-12mm Steel Titanium | eBay UK

High-Speed Steel large step cone drill. 4-20mm : (4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 18mm, 20mm). 4-12mm : (4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm). 3-12mm : (3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm).
www.ebay.co.uk
 
Lons said:
Just let me know if you want pegs or tapered dowels turned Roger. The narrow step drills do a reasonable job of a taper you just need to clean off the ridges if a deep hole. You can pick up a very cheap set of 3 on ebay. Amazon etc.


www.ebay.co.uk

Step Drill Bit Set Cone Hole Cutter 3Pcs Set 4-20mm 3-12mm 4-12mm Steel Titanium | eBay UK

High-Speed Steel large step cone drill. 4-20mm : (4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 16mm, 18mm, 20mm). 4-12mm : (4mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm). 3-12mm : (3mm, 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm).
www.ebay.co.uk
Click to expand...
Also available without the ridges, I’ve had a conecut for years, really handy and gives a wonderful smooth edged hole.
Ian
 
I confess I am nervous about the idea of fixing vertically as the joint will be under tension. I like Andy’s idea of putting the handles on the end so the fixing is in shear which is likely to be stronger. As suggested by many something more than just glue seems like a good plan as it is a relatively small surface area you are dealing with.
 
Personally I'd just glue and screw it then plug the screw holes with contrasting dowel / pegs as a feature.
 
Malc2098 said:
I use finishing resin to pore fill my instrument bodies and necks, which include veneers. That could be a durable finish on your veneer.
Click to expand...
Do you then sand it down with a very fine grit? Then polish ?
 
AndyP said:
Are you attaching the handles to the top of the tray rather than the sides? Would fixing horizontally through the sides of the handles not provide a stronger fixing? Through dowels in a dark wood to match the the tray or screw and plug.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about fixing the handles sideways ?
 
Weekend_Woodworker said:
I confess I am nervous about the idea of fixing vertically as the joint will be under tension. I like Andy’s idea of putting the handles on the end so the fixing is in shear which is likely to be stronger. As suggested by many something more than just glue seems like a good plan as it is a relatively small surface area you are dealing with.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what Andy is suggesting TBH.
 
Many thanks to all for the suggestions.

I think that a tapered dowel adds complexity for zero additional benefit. A simple dowel in walnut ...turned up by the LatheMeister Bob (thanks, Lons (y) )..will do the trick.
 
RogerS said:
Do you then sand it down with a very fine grit? Then polish ?
Click to expand...
I use it as a pore filler, which means I sand back down to wood, leaving just the pores filled. This means the nitro lacquer I buy isn't wasted filling pores. But you could use the finishing resin and sand back flat, not as far as your veneer, and that can be sanded through the grits to a high finish. You could always try it out on a test piece of wood and see if it works for you.
 
RogerS said:
Are you talking about fixing the handles sideways ?
Click to expand...
I wasn’t but it is an idea.
What I was trying to impart was the handles stay upright and fixed to the end edges of the tray and as www pointed out fixings then would be in shear, stronger and unlikely to pull through under heavy weight. Through dowels or screw and plug.
No reasons why the handles shouldn’t be fixed sideways other than aesthetically I do not think would look so nice.
 
RogerS said:
Many thanks to all for the suggestions.

I think that a tapered dowel adds complexity for zero additional benefit. A simple dowel in walnut ...turned up by the LatheMeister Bob (thanks, Lons (y) )..will do the trick.
Click to expand...
Just let me know size Roger and I'll sort it. Will make extra in case you cock it up. ;) :ROFLMAO:
Are you sure you don't want fancy 3D printed ones in bright yellow or pink. :unsure:
 
Lons said:
Just let me know size Roger and I'll sort it. Will make extra in case you cock it up. ;) :ROFLMAO:
Are you sure you don't want fancy 3D printed ones in bright yellow or pink. :unsure:
Click to expand...
8mm please, Bob
AndyP said:
I wasn’t but it is an idea.
What I was trying to impart was the handles stay upright and fixed to the end edges of the tray and as www pointed out fixings then would be in shear, stronger and unlikely to pull through under heavy weight. Through dowels or screw and plug.
No reasons why the handles shouldn’t be fixed sideways other than aesthetically I do not think would look so nice.
Click to expand...
Totally agree re sideways. The handles aren't thick enough to run a hole through.
 
It's in the box Roger, just second class post tho as I'm a cheapskate Geordie. ;)
 
If you are going to be using a finishing resin, Roger, then I'd do it, and sand it, before fixing the handles in place.
 
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