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Glue up when cold

G

GeoffW

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Geoff
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Could I seek some help and advice from this knowledgeable forum please?

I need to glue up a small cabinet in the coming days.
With the temp forecast to be around 4 or 5 degrees, and my garage having just a small space heater, will I be ok to use PVA?
I do have the option of using 2 part epoxy, or PU if I need to.
As a rule I always seem to revert to PVA, I suppose its my 'default setting'.

Thanks in advance

Cheers

Geoff
 
Lurker said:
I try to put off glue ups at this time of the year but otherwise I clamp and clean well and bring it into the house.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the prompt reply.
I didn't think to bring it in! It's small enough to do that.

Problem solved. 😁

Cheers
 
I heat the joints up with a hot air gun in this weather, especially anything below 10 degrees C, point it at the joints after putting glue on both sides of the joint then glue up as normal, the heat stays inside the joint for a long time and helps it cure faster as well.
 
Great advice guys.

Cheers
 
PU works in the cold, even under freezing temperatures but it does become very viscous resembling a thick caramel in consistency, a trick for using PU in cold conditions is to pop it in the microwave for a bit which warms the glue up but doesn't seem to harm the bond strength. Conversely, if you want more open time in the summer you can put PU in the fridge for a while.
 
I have found that below +10 celsius most epoxies will not cure. Only when kept above +15 for a long time the chemical reaction will start anew and consequently the glue will start curing again.

Pulurethane needs temperatures a few degrees above freezing. In just a few degrees below freezing it will cure somewhat but never to full strenght. In cold weather it will not cure at all nor will the contents of the bottle ever cure properly anymore once it has been used in cold weather.

PVA will cure slowly in anything above freezing but once the temperature has dropped below freezing it will be chemically destroyed and not cure at all.

in Finland they sell as special very viscous yellow wood glue called Pakkasliima. It is strictly for indoor use as it isn't water resistant. Though it can be used in fairly cold weather. Down to -10 celsius if I recall correctly.

I often use a powerful electric heater when gluing in winter. I often keep onl +5 or +10 celsius in the heated workshop. The boat workshop is unheated and there I often work down to -20 celsius but I try to save the glueups for a warmer day.
 
If you don't really want to bring it back into the house after clamping, cover it with an electric blanket and a duvet.
I had one such EB for vac press jobs, which somehow didn't make the crossing to France. It went onto a lorry in Kirkby but didn't come of the (different) lorry in Laplagne. I wasn't here at the time to supervise. I keep finding things that are lost (as it were) like my "Workshop Sweet Workshop" plaque that a friend made for me and a rather spendid pippy oak coffee table top that I was looking forward to finishing :(
 
Thanks to all for the helpful advice.
 
Just to add.
It was a bit too cold in the shed yesterday, so this was brought into the house, for gluing.IMG_3458clamps 11.1.25.jpg
Did I use enough clamps, or do I have a problem?
(48 clamps of the smaller, lighter type)

Bod1
 
After unsuccessfully attempting to patch up a door...
which I had been storing for a day or so in the house, and thereafter glued at a height a bit under a chair level,
I figured I'd need to up my game a bit.
I suggest getting one of those infrared thermometer guns, should you not have one already, great yokes
and made it easier for me up to up my game, than the wall thermometers.tent.JPG

I since made up a mesh table which can do the job...
not be in the way, and be a quicker fix, if the sizes of the pieces aren't too large.
I found it rather good, (with a heavier blanket though), but can dry out the timbers causing checking,
so I keep liberally soaking the surface.
Perhaps I'm a bit too impatient, and could turn down the rad a bit more/not as hot to take the coldness off the surface prior, though I don't find that too much bother, since I'm cleaning up PVA glue anyway.
a heavier blanket needed.JPG
All the best
Tom
 
My neighbour has asked me to make a little frame and door to hide the electricity meter. He brought round some engineered oak boards today, we ripped them (well he did the ripping, I still can't see what I'm doing) and we cut a set of box joints. But it's been only just above freezing all day, and is below it now that the sun has gone down, so I told him to keep the wood and his PVA (which is in his barn) in the kitchen overnight and we'll look at it again tomorrow. Hopefully it will be warm enough to glue up.
 
Steve Maskery said:
If you don't really want to bring it back into the house after clamping, cover it with an electric blanket and a duvet.
Click to expand...
Wot Steve said. I have a very cheap electric under blanket (£18) and one of the kid's old duvets from decades ago when they were teeny tots. Once the project is cocooned in the blanket and duvet a surprising amount of heat is generated - Rob
 
I do have the National Collection of duvets (including one that is the only one of its kind in the world, courtesy of Fogaty, 20-odd years ago when I was doing my MBA - itis rather perfect, I wish I'd turned it into a business, I did have the opportunity and didn't take it. Story of my life). But, as I say the Electric Blanket went AWOL, so tomorrow I think it might be a hot water bottle instead.
 
I just did my glue up in the kitchen having put some cardboard down first to protect the floor from drips.IMG_2630.jpeg
 
You guys struggling with glue......how cold are your workshops? I'm using glue most days, with no issues.
 
Mike G said:
You guys struggling with glue......how cold are your workshops? I'm using glue most days, with no issues.
Click to expand...
What temperature is it where you are? Where I live we've had overnight temperatures below -7°C (19°F) for the last 4 nights with daytime temperatures at or below freezing point most days for about 12 days, now. At work I currently have an exterior door and frame repair to undertake and can't do anything until we have at least a night of above freezing weather followed by a full day of the same (to allow time for the mass of the building to warm up - the door and casing are still in place in the building and can't just be hauled out)
 
I don't think we've been above zero all week, until this afternoon. Down to minus 5 or 6 at night.
 
I think it depends a lot on the glue, around freezing in the workshop here at the mo, Evostick the blue one is working just fine, a little thicker than normal that’s all.
But finally got fed up with the nozzle and decanted some into a ketchup bottle, the sort with a thin membrane, seems to be working a treat, delivers a nice line of glue without all the hard squeezing. Anyone else tried it?
Ian
 
Mike G said:
I don't think we've been above zero all week, until this afternoon. Down to minus 5 or 6 at night.
Click to expand...
It ought to have said that I doubt my workshop has ever gone much below 10 degrees (there's no thermometer to tell me I'm wrong!). Even if I'm not in it for 2 or 3 days, it stays relatively comfortable.
 
Cabinetman said:
I think it depends a lot on the glue, around freezing in the workshop here at the mo, Evostick the blue one is working just fine, a little thicker than normal that’s all.
Click to expand...
My experience is that water based glues like PVA (that's what Evo Stik Resin W is) start chalking out at around 2 to 3°C mark and that when held at sub zero ice crystals form and wreck them. Chalked glue in joints may hold for a while, but can fail prematurely. The temperature of the wood also makes a big difference. The aforentioned repair was on a 70mm+ thick oak door which stays cold a long time after the ambient temperature has reached a comfortable level.
 
Ovaloe said:
My experience is that water based glues like PVA (that's what Evo Stik Resin W is) start chalking out at around 2 to 3°C mark and that when held at sub zero ice crystals form and wreck them. Chalked glue in joints may hold for a while, but can fail prematurely. The temperature of the wood also makes a big difference. The aforentioned repair was on a 70mm+ thick oak door which stays cold a long time after the ambient temperature has reached a comfortable level.
Click to expand...
Despite what I said earlier going back to the joint afterwards the smear on the surface didn’t look at all normal, very white almost like paint.
And I’ve gone away for a week and left the glue in the workshop. Most annoying as I can’t get any more over here. One x 1ltr left, I shall have to make it last all year. Are you sure that it will be ruined?
Ian
 
Cabinetman said:
Despite what I said earlier going back to the joint afterwards the smear on the surface didn’t look at all normal, very white almost like paint.
Click to expand...
That's chalking. When you open the joint it looks like chalk

Cabinetman said:
Are you sure that it will be ruined?
Click to expand...

From past experience yes, although in my case I have been incautious enough to leave glue overnight or over a weekend in my van or on site a dew times. Neither environment is guaranteed to be heated.

For me it boils down to avoiding call backs as the can cost me in both financial and reputational terms. Far easier to just avoid risk. BTW we have moved over to using the Everbuild D4 glue (a white PVA-like substance) instead if Evostik. Sets faster, fully waterproof glue joint (D4), doesn't foam up qnd can be tinted using powder paints, etc
 
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Ovaloe said:
BTW we have moved over to using the Everbuild D4 glue (a white PVA-like substance) instead if Evostik.
Click to expand...
It's great glue, but it has a very short shelf life; if it's not all gone by the 'use by' date on the bottle, what's left will start to go very lumpy and will need to be binned. If you're in the fortunate position of being able to use it quickly, D4 is the way forward, but for most of us, I suspect a one litre bottle lasts a very long time. For that reason I've reverted to TB3 which is twice the price, but if it's kept cool (say in the fridge) it'll last for ten years - Rob
 
I have used Everbuild 502 which is suitable for structural use and light water contact, you can buy 5Lt for around £20 inc delivery or 1Lt for about £5 and I have found it to be excellent. The shelf life is supposed to be 12 months but I have kept it sealed (not in a squeeze bottle) and used it for jointing Oak stair treads after it had been stored for about 3 years. Treads have been in for around four years and are situated in offices so lots of traffic no joint problems at all.

Everbuild data sheet states not to glue under 10C.

Everbuild 502 is a D3 glue which is suitable for areas that may contact water but it's not got the same high resistance to moisture as some D4 wood glues. Everbuild D4 is both highly water resistant and can be used as a structral glue. If you need a structral glue you need to read the data sheets as some D4 glues are not able to be used as a structural glue because the modified D4 formula makes some D4 glues unsuitable. In low tempratures if the glue sets clear then it is most likely fine but if it changes to white (as stated above) then it is probably too cold to glue up and the joint has failed.

Most glues state a 12 month shelf life and most state a minimum recommended glue up temp of 10C minimum. Very often there will be a data sheet available on the sellers web page for download with all the relevant information to check.
 
Woodbloke said:
As I mentioned above, if you buy some Everbuild D4, find the 'use by' date on the bottle; the stuff I've bought in the past has had an approximate life of 6 months, maybe less - Rob
Click to expand...
6 months shelf life for their D4 wood glue, is what is says on the Everbuild D4 data sheet. It is a short shelf life but it is a glue for a specific task, D3 is better for general use. The Everbuild 502 D3 has a stated shelf life of 12 months.

This link takes you to the UREKA web page that explains the differences between the D1 D2 D3 and D4 wood glues:
https://thenamethatsticks.com/how-t...rence-between-d1-d2-d3-and-d4-wood-adhesives/

And part of the text relating to D4 rated wood glues is here:

A Glue.gif
 
Woodbloke said:
It's great glue, but it has a very short shelf life; if it's not all gone by the 'use by' date on the bottle, what's left will start to go very lumpy and will need to be binned. If you're in the fortunate position of being able to use it quickly, D4 is the way forward, but for most of us, I suspect a one litre bottle lasts a very long time. For that reason I've reverted to TB3 which is twice the price, but if it's kept cool (say in the fridge) it'll last for ten years - Rob
Click to expand...
A litre lasts me 3 to 5 weeks, so TBH i don't know much about shelf life once opened. In terms of it being a specialist glue, not really, it's just that it sets fast (20 to 40 minutes depending on temperature) and is weatherproof, so it tends to fit our needs for much of the time. And that short setting time is important for use where stuff needs to be glued then worked (planed, routed sawn, etc) as soon as possible afterwards. In the bottle (unopened) it seems to last at least 5 or 6 months when stored in my rather cool cellar, despite the 3 month deadline given in the previous post (maybe I should take a look at the expiry date on mine).
 
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Cabinetman said:
Despite what I said earlier going back to the joint afterwards the smear on the surface didn’t look at all normal, very white almost like paint.
And I’ve gone away for a week and left the glue in the workshop. Most annoying as I can’t get any more over here. One x 1ltr left, I shall have to make it last all year. Are you sure that it will be ruined?
Ian
Click to expand...
So I’ve done a simple test on the glue that was chalky after being in a v cold garage for weeks, Evostick -the blue one, as I said previously I used it in its cold state and the result was a chalky almost paint like smear where it was roughly wiped when wet.
I brought it inside shook it and allowed it to acclimatise, simple glue joint and this time the exposed glue where wiped looked as it always did, semi opaque sort of plasticky and not chalky at all. Broke the joint the next day and the wood broke before the joint did.
So being a tight beggar I shall now use it on my bench top glue up. When the weather warms up a bit- if it ever does, more snow overnight here.

IMG_0037.jpeg
 
I really don't know what woodworkers use for glue in this country. Yes you can get PVA, but in tiny bottles and it costs a fortune. My current bottle of Everbuild D3 is getting a bit thick, but still works and I have 2 more bottles, unopened, in the cupboard indoors. They are all over 2 years old now, so I don't know what state they will be in.
Of course, you can get anything on the Big River, even in France (but at a price, especially if it shipped from the UK, as many such supplies are).
S
 
Steve, the glue I buy here, from B&Q, is a big (5L, perhaps) tub of French PVA. If they sell French stuff here, I'm sure they must have it somewhere there. All the big hardware chains in Europe seem to be French (Leroy Merlin and Bricomarche), so there must be glue to be had there.
 
Mike G said:
Steve, the glue I buy here, from B&Q, is a big (5L, perhaps) tub of French PVA. If they sell French stuff here, I'm sure they must have it somewhere there. All the big hardware chains in Europe seem to be French (Leroy Merlin and Bricomarche), so there must be glue to be had there.
Click to expand...
Well they hide it well...
Do you have a brand name? I have relatively easy access to both Leroy Merlin and Bricomarché.
 
IMG_7921 (1296 x 972).jpgIMG_7922 (1296 x 972).jpg

Turns out it's English. The name is in French, though!
 
Thanks, mike, I'll look out for it. There is a Castorama in Limoges, I believe, I've not come across Bricodepot.
S
PS Have you noticed the rather different Customer Service hours? It's a wonder anything get done over here, they are alway resting, eating or celebrating some obscure Saint's day (including, I suspect, the Patron Saint of Patron Saints' day). Any excuse to stop work.
S
 
Don’t look too hard Steve, looks like they sold all the old stock to the uk. :)
www.castorama.fr

Colle à bois intérieur blanche 2,5kg | Castorama

Colle à bois intérieur blanche 2,5kg
www.castorama.fr

I’m afraid all the time I am making 3 or 4 trips a year to the UK I’d rather stick to what I am used to when it comes to glue ( pun intended)
 
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