How long to cut a rebate (unpowered)?

[Windows]

Say you have a 1.3 m long 2 by 2 (44 mm x 44 mm) and you need to cut a 9 mm x 24 mm rebate along its length, how long do you take to do it (without power tools) and by what means?

 

[Trevanion]

If it's just the one piece, a sharp chisel and a hammer would make short work of it.

Mark out your rebate and chisel down at a roughly 45-degree angle to your 9mm line, if the timber is particularly hard you can chisel half the 24mm width and do a second pass to cut across the whole width. Chisel along the rebate at intervals of roughly 8-12mm down to your 9mm mark, then once you have chiseled along the whole way, pare across the grain along the 9mm line to peel off the excess chips back to your 24mm line and once you have removed most of the excess, pare down your 24mm line to get it clean.

 

[toolsntat]

Marking gauge and duplex rebate plane set rank.
Hog of to near lines and back off the iron to finesse the finish.
Ideally have wood too long to screw it to a good solid substrate.
Cheers, Andy

 

[Windows]

These seem like good approaches. How long should they take including any marking out?

 

[PAC1]

Or a grooving plane and No5 hand plane. Cut 9mm deep groove on the 24mm line. Then plane down the waste.
If you have a rebate plane you could rough it out and then refine to your lines
Any of all the above methods are good. It is a long time since I did such a task but I would like to think around about 1hr would have it done. Faster 30 years ago.

 

[TomTrees]

I'd think the moving fillister plane would be the quickest/easiest hand tool for the job,
if that was what you were asking?

All the best
Tom

 

[Cabinetman]

You haven’t said what the situation is so this may not be suitable, use a handsaw to cut along the length at the edges of the rebate then glue the wanted bit back on, depending on the application you might get away without planing— sawing gives a good glueing surface anyway.
Without drying time about 10 mins.
Ian

 

[Mike G]

My experience is that planing a groove first will give you a clean back face, whereas using a rebate plane will give you a sloped/ stepped back face which then takes quite a lot of cleaning up, and is difficult to get accurate. So, I would plane a 9mm deep groove first (5 minutes) (as per PAC1), chop out the bulk with a chisel (as per Trevanion) (5 minutes), clean up with a rebate plane (5 minutes).....so a 15 minute job.

Your biggest task is holding the workpiece securely at the edge of your bench.

 

[AndyP]

Surely timber type, grain direction, would have an effect on time taken and tools used?

 

[Windows]

It’s gently sloping grained softwood (redwood pine) of medium density (not slow-grown old wood) with typically 1 knot in the area to be rebated.

The numbers for the time are particularly interesting. It feels like it should take me no more than 20-25 mins (by comparison to how long it would take me to do 2 through rip cuts along the length), but it’s currently taking me just over an hour (using a combination of sawing and chiselling - my saw won’t clear the sawdust from a non-through cut).

I’ve got many more of these to do. 15 mins per would be OK to continue with hand tools. At 1 hr per, I can’t really justify the time and I’ll have to switch to the track saw.

By getting a number of techniques with associated times, I figured I’d be able to see how much of the time is just my inexperience with the tools, how much it’s using the wrong tool, and how much is fixed cost that can’t be avoided.

 

[PAC1]

15 minutes. It would take me longer than 5 minutes to set up the grooving plane. It would take me 5 minutes to set up the work holding system. Chopping out the waste rather than planing would be quicker.
If you have multiple pieces to cut then the average will be much under an hour each.
I definitely would not hand saw the rebate as cutting along the grain is slow as you have found out and not that tidy.

 

[Raymedullary]

Assuming you mean a through rebate...
A 778 fillister plane will make mincemeat of it. Properly set up this plane will not produce the often complained of sloping/stepped edge as mentioned above if it is set up correctly with the blade protruding from the side face of the body.... that is why the blade is actually wider by about .5mm than the the planes body. Holding the timber is pretty easy if you can start with it over length then just screw through the waste parts each end into a scrap and put that in the vice or if not then a sash cramp in the vice will do it.

 

[AndyP]

Back on the 22 Aug 2017 AndyT wrote an excellent article elsewhere on the various planes that could be used for making a rebate. I wonder if he could be persuaded to repost it here

 

[Mike G]

15 minutes. It would take me longer than 5 minutes to set up the grooving plane.

Surely you've only got to move a fence and a depth stop?

It would take me 5 minutes to set up the work holding system.

I didn't include any time for that, and agree that this could be the biggest fiddle of all. Those whose bench includes a tail-vice will do it in seconds. I'd need a does-foot, a planing stop, a piece of scrap, and two hold-fasts.

 

[Raymedullary]

I'm not understanding the need for a plough plane? Simply no need to use two tools here? just learn to set up a 778 rebate and its really rather easy and works beautifully.

 

[Mike G]

.....just learn to set up a 778 rebate .....

There's a danger that could sound a little patronising, don't you think.

 

[Raymedullary]

There's a danger that could sound a little patronising, don't you think.

Blimey!
If you prefer you could replace the word "learn" with the phrase "look into the ins and outs of setting up a 778" ..... All the same though really?
There is a certain knack to setting the blade which is a learning process.

 

[PAC1]

Ray, I have never found the Record 778 to be that wonderful. It may be I am left handed. I also worked in a shop where three of the six joiners had matching scars on the palm of their hands from using a 778 to ease a storm proof top sash. I now have a Veritas left handed rebate plane which is completely different and a joy to use.

Mike, my Stanley 45 resides in a box. It is packed away neatly but it needs assembling and a blade inserting then fence attaching. It is not a plane I keep ready for action. My small plough plane is closer to being kept ready for action but I have to store it with the fence reversed so I would need to adjust the fence. In order to do so I need to find the right allen key. I know I should solve the storage and place an allen key to hand.

 

[Raymedullary]

Ray, I have never found the Record 778 to be that wonderful. It may be I am left handed. I also worked in a shop where three of the six joiners had matching scars on the palm of their hands from using a 778 to ease a storm proof top sash. I now have a Veritas left handed rebate plane which is completely different and a joy to use.

Mike, my Stanley 45 resides in a box. It is packed away neatly but it needs assembling and a blade inserting then fence attaching. It is not a plane I keep ready for action. My small plough plane is closer to being kept ready for action but I have to store it with the fence reversed so I would need to adjust the fence. In order to do so I need to find the right allen key. I know I should solve the storage and place an allen key to hand.

You are right they can feel a touch crude, one really big improvement is to fit a wooden handle on the front in the section intended to place the blade near the front (who ever wanted to do that?)

 

[PAC1]

You are right they can feel a touch crude, one really big improvement is to fit a wooden handle on the front in the section intended to place the blade near the front (who ever wanted to do that?)

The problem was being left handed.
As for the blade at the front, it is useful when making half glazed doors where the rebate either reverses side or there is no rebate at the bottom. it allows you to get closer to the point where you slope the rebate out or to make stopped rebates.

 

[Windows]

I just did another and went at it with the chisel, got 95% of the waste out in 17 minutes and was feeling confident I’d get it done in 25 mins with room to improve the next one, but then took another 40 minutes on the remainder! Took 10 minutes on the knot for whatever reason, but just slowed to a crawl as I got close to the line. Think maybe need to be more confident to get 99% of the waste away with the mallet before paring.

 

[PAC1]

Hi Windows, that sounds like you need your chisels to be sharper. Knots in pine can be hardwork but a very sharp chisel will win. Also with pairing in pine it should be easy with a sharp chisel.

 

[Windows]

Hi Windows, that sounds like you need your chisels to be sharper. Knots in pine can be hardwork but a very sharp chisel will win. Also with pairing in pine it should be easy with a sharp chisel.

Oh that’s interesting. I’ve never used a chisel sharpened by someone else, so while my chisel is definitely a lot sharper than my blunt ones, maybe it could be sharper still. I’ll give it a go.

 

[AndyT]

Back on the 22 Aug 2017 AndyT wrote an excellent article elsewhere on the various planes that could be used for making a rebate. I wonder if he could be persuaded to repost it here

That must be one of the many times I was asking myself a similar question to Windows. I would have tried out different methods and written up notes to guide myself in future.
Naturally, I now have no recollection of this.

I will see what I can do but it won't be until next week as I don't have access to the pictures from where I am at the moment.

 

[Windows]

That must be one of the many times I was asking myself a similar question to Windows. I would have tried out different methods and written up notes to guide myself in future.
Naturally, I now have no recollection of this.

I will see what I can do but it won't be until next week as I don't have access to the pictures from where I am at the moment.

I started looking for that article, but got distracted when I found this:

Looks like a good watch.

 

[Trevanion]

Oh that’s interesting. I’ve never used a chisel sharpened by someone else, so while my chisel is definitely a lot sharper than my blunt ones, maybe it could be sharper still. I’ll give it a go.

What I usually aim for when it comes to "sharp" is when you touch the edge of the tool to one of your finger nails, does the sharp edge bite into the finger nail or skate off? If it skates off it's too dull and needs touching up but if it digs in even with the lightest touch it's sharp enough for most work.

Being able to shave hair with your tool is also a good indicator of how sharp it is.

 

[jimhanna]

Or a grooving plane and No5 hand plane. Cut 9mm deep groove on the 24mm line. Then plane down the waste.

Must admit I'd do something similar to this rather than try to plane down the 24mm width in one go.

You say you have a lot of these to do so initial set-up of a plough plane (which would only be a few minutes to set the depth stop and fence) is irrelevant in the total time.

You could probably plough dozens of narrow grooves with one sharpening of a narrow blade. Taking down the bulk of the waste with
a jack or scrub would be quick and these could be re-sharpened as required without any worries about setting fences or depth stops again.

Cutting 9mm deep in a 44mm stock should give you enough depth for the fence and sufficient left over to hold in a bench vice.

 

[Windows]

What I usually aim for when it comes to "sharp" is when you touch the edge of the tool to one of your finger nails, does the sharp edge bite into the finger nail or skate off? If it skates off it's too dull and needs touching up but if it digs in even with the lightest touch it's sharp enough for most work.

Being able to shave hair with your tool is also a good indicator of how sharp it is.

Is it possible to get this sharp with only diamond/water stones or is stropping (with compound on leather) necessary?

 

[Mike G]

...... is stropping (with compound on leather) necessary?

Yes. Absolutely.

 

[Setch]

I found stropping to be a revelation. I could get a blade sharp enough to shave without, but a quick stropping removes an almost imperceptible wire edge, and results in hairs seeming to sever themselves at the mere proximity of the edge!

I just use a scrap of leather. I have several around the workshop, some stuck to a backer, some loose, and some with polishing compound on. They seem to perform much the same. In extremisis I use my worktrousers or the palm of my hand, which also work OK.

 

[Trevanion]

Is it possible to get this sharp with only diamond/water stones or is stropping (with compound on leather) necessary?

You can get very sharp with very fine water stones when you start going over 4000 grit. I've tried a few different methods, but I find it easier and faster with an India oilstone and a loaded strop these days.

 

[Windows]

This is all good news. I have a fairly fine water stone, but it’s not 4000. I’ll get a strop and compound and see what difference sharper chisels can make.

 

[derekcohen]

Say you have a 1.3 m long 2 by 2 (44 mm x 44 mm) and you need to cut a 9 mm x 24 mm rebate along its length, how long do you take to do it (without power tools) and by what means?

Maximum 5 minutes. And that includes sharpening the blade and setting up the plane ...

Even my little shop made moving fillester would manage this ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[TomTrees]

Even my little shop made moving fillester would manage this ...

Is that a skewed blade on the Veritas plane Derek, and it that why you're using it o'er your own one...
or is it that the tote is just more comfortable?
Cheers

All the best
Tom

 

[Windows]

5 mins would be a dream. Do you do anything special if you have to plane over a knot?

 

[derekcohen]

Is that a skewed blade on the Veritas plane Derek, and it that why you're using it o'er your own one...
or is it that the tote is just more comfortable?
Cheers

All the best
Tom

Tom, the Veritas has a skewed blade. My little fillister has a straight blade, mainly because it is also used as a shoulder plane (I made it for my travel tool box). The Veritas Skew Rabbet Plane, to use the full title, is a terrific fillister, as good as it gets. I use this plane a lot, and it really does the job in little time (compared with a router table, where you have to set up a cutter and fence).

Here are some photos from another case (taken from my website) ...

This is what the shavings from fairly straight-grained wood looks like ...

This is the result when the grain is significantly interlocked ...

The case is dovetailed with mitres at each corner. There are two benefits for this: the first is aesthetic; the second is that it permits the panels to be rebated through the full length (otherwise stopped rebates are needed) ...

Here is a better glimpse of the grain direction ...

The case back is done ...

The finish we were looking for ...

Regards from Perth

Derek