Index Map Search at the Land Registry

[RogerS]

The property we are hoping to buy is not currently registered. So our solicitor asked for an Index Map Search that looks at surrounding Title Plans to see if they have registered some of the land that we think we are going to buy.

Has anyone had any experience of this ? Know if it's automated or human control ?

Because it's thrown up a possible clash but is a right teaser because it doesn't tell you what/why or where. Really helpful. I've compared the two plans...LH is the registered Title Plan and RH is our proposed purchase. I cannot see any conflict.






The only possible reason is the small pink rectangle (arrowed). It's 'our' garage. It is also shown on the LH plan as a green rectangle and the text (partially hidden) says that the bit in green does not form part of the Title because it belongs to our property ...as we are expecting.

If the Index Map Search is automated then possibly it cannot parse that text and so thinks it's not ours. I put that to our solicitor who replied thus

The Land Registry will have taken into account the land not included in title to .........when carrying out the search.

The reality is that the Land Registry’s mapping methods mean that they can more accurately pinpoint discrepancies than we can.

As suggested the consequences are potentially:

1. very minor - if the incursion from the neighbouring registered title is very minor in itself (and just involves, say, a couple of feet on a boundary), or
2. quite significant if, for example, the garage on the ground, where placed on the recent sales plan (which may be more accurate as to the garage’s position on the ground - having utilised more recent satellite photography) is at odds with the older Land Registry plans (which may have used more dated imagery to create title plan......because that means the sellers are purporting to sell to you land (which they may well occupy on the ground) which in fact is registered to a third party (the owner of xxxxxxx). If that was the case and we simply proceeded, when we applied to register ........ in your names the Land Registry would say that they could not register to you the land already registered to a third party.

The starting point is for the sellers and their solicitors to identify where the discrepancy is. If this reveals the second scenario, I am afraid that this will delay matters whilst they resolve. However, better that than you buy land that they were unable to transfer to you, and we are left trying to rectify post-completion.

I looked at the satellite image and that also, to my eyes, shows no contention.



Our solicitor was wrong before viz Planning Permissions and I think he could be wrong again. Trouble is I have an Olympic Worrier living with me.

 

[HappyHacker]

The land registry title plans are not necessarily accurate. Partially due to the accuracy of any OS maps on which they are based and partially due to the thickness of any lines on the plans submitted for title registration. In addition they can make mistakes especially on old registrations where the current standards applied to title maps submitted for registration were not in place.

It has cost me over £40,000 to learn the above. I sold part of some land for £12,000 and 15 years later the purchaser decides he owns parts of my land. The land registry had made a mistake on the title of an adjacent house when registered in the 60's so the boundary of the land I bought/sold was wrong on the title deed. despite fences etc being in the correct place. In addition the OS map of the area was wrong and they corrected that with a detailed survey. Even a substation was in the incorrect position on the OS map. I had to prove this to the land registry who eventually corrected the error on their Index map but would not change the title deeds as they were within their tolerances. Eventually I had to give the purchaser land he had not bought or pay over £100,000 to go to court where even if I won I would not get all my costs back.

I would get the seller to sort the issue out otherwise it may cost you a lot in surveyor fees and solicitor fees.

Good luck

 

[duke]

Over here we can pay a small fee for title insurance to protect you from irregularities but in most cases your lawyer will not do due diligence because of it.
I have bought and sold many properties and always provided or received a survey. If the seller does not have one and the property is registered at the land registry , I still insist for one or no deal. And I always check with the land registry that they match.
If you are dealing with multiple parts and parcels make sure your lawyer states all of these on the land transfer document.
An example, our present property has a land locked parcel of land across the lake from us. When I went in to review documents before signing the lawyer had missed putting that parcel of land on the submission papers. Oh they said it's already registered with the current owners, then I said if you register without the included parcel then according to the land registry I won't own it.
They did include it after our discussion.
As HappyHacker mentioned things can get very messy.

 

[RogerS]

I'm becoming much more comfortable with my diagnosis/synopsis as I got a reply back from that commercial Land Registry outfit that the Search is done digitally. High chance that that writing got ignored thus raising the Red Flag. Got an enquiry out to the actual Land Registry.

 

[akirk]

you can go online to the land registry and download plans and deeds.
Simply download at £7.50 per deed (was half that until recently!)
I would agree with your reading of it - the two diagrams in the first post match - like a jigsaw, one is the inverse of the other which is what you want to see...

more to the point though is do you have a right of way / access to the garage?! otherwise there is no point owning it when it seems to be surrounded by someone else's land

 

[Blackswanwood]

Something that may ease the concerns of the Olympic Worrier on the topic of right of way …

A right of way doesn’t necessarily need be noted in the title deeds (if unregistered) or by the Land Registry if it is registered.

Right of way is often obtained through long use. If the current or previous owners have accessed the garage across land belonging to someone else regularly over a twenty year period they can claim a right of way has been established. It’s called a prescriptive easement.

We had similar issues when we bought our current house (no decipherable mention of access rights in an 8” thick title deed pack) and the vendors solicitor got statements from members of the family owning the house which solved the issue.

 

[RogerS]

Re Right of Access. There’s a missing 1943 document. Two Indemnity policies have sorted that out. There is also a formal statement re accessing along it for 41 years.

Alasdair…I think the Land Registry should give me a discount for quantity. When we’ve been looking at potential properties my Go-To was always the Title Plan

 

[akirk]

In which case it sounds as though you should be fine…

 

[RogerS]

...

We had similar issues when we bought our current house (no decipherable mention of access rights in an 8” thick title deed pack) and the vendors solicitor got statements from members of the family owning the house which solved the issue.

At our last place there were two oversights by the solicitors drawing up the old covenants etc.

Our power came down a cable from the farm. There was a clause to say we had the right to use the cable but nowhere did it say whose cable it actually was or, indeed, who was responsible for maintaining it.

We had Right of Way down the farmer's drive. We had the right to tarmac it. But nowhere was there anything to say that he couldn't then dig it up.

Both of these were picked up by our solicitor - the one we're using now. Whe we sold, neither was picked up by our buyer's solicitor

 

[John Brown]

At our last place there were two oversights by the solicitors drawing up the old covenants etc.

Our power came down a cable from the farm. There was a clause to say we had the right to use the cable but nowhere did it say whose cable it actually was or, indeed, who was responsible for maintaining it.

We had Right of Way down the farmer's drive. We had the right to tarmac it. But nowhere was there anything to say that he couldn't then dig it up.

Both of these were picked up by our solicitor - the one we're using now. Whe we sold, neither was picked up by our buyer's solicitor View attachment 33401

Aren't you supposed to disclose stuff like that when you sell?
When we bought this place the sellers even showed us correspondence with the neighbour relating to her dogs jumping the fence, in the interests of full disclosure.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Aren't you supposed to disclose stuff like that when you sell?
When we bought this place the sellers even showed us correspondence with the neighbour relating to her dogs jumping the fence, in the interests of full disclosure.

Only if asked.

It’s usual for the purchasers solicitor to require the vendor to complete a TA6 form which asks if you have had any disputes with neighbour (which probably explains what you were provided with). It also asks a series of questions about boundaries and whether you are aware if anything which might lead to a dispute.

 

[RogerS]

Aren't you supposed to disclose stuff like that when you sell?
When we bought this place the sellers even showed us correspondence with the neighbour relating to her dogs jumping the fence, in the interests of full disclosure.

Exactly as blackswanwood has said. Ever heard of Caveat Emptor ? Ask the questions.

 

[John Brown]

Exactly as blackswanwood has said. Ever heard of Caveat Emptor ? Ask the questions.

Yes, I have heard of caveat emptor, the very fact that it's a Latin phrase alerts me to the possibility that it may be slightly outdated. I have to say that in the last two or three property transactions I've been involved with, there seemed to be a duty to disclose, or at the very least, a phrasing in the contract that would lead one to believe that there was some imperitave to supply such information m
However, I'm not wanting to make trouble, or start an argument, just genuinely curious.

 

[RogerS]

Oh damn, damn and double damn. Just got a reply from the actual Land Registry.

"Our SIM applications are completed by a member of staff and not by computer or any form of AI."

So that rules out the garage. Rollox. But as sure as anything I can't see what the issue is.

 

[spb]

Just visually the pink garage rectangle seems to be a different shape - slightly squarer - than the cut-out on the left-hand plan.

Could it be that when the other property's title was registered they just applied a standard "garage sized" rectangle which doesn't quite match the reality on the ground? If so then that seems like it ought to be simple enough, if potentially time-consuming, for the sellers to resolve.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Is it an actual conflict or just the potential for there to be one that is being flagged Roger?

If it’s the latter I wonder if it is simply because your title is not registered and is described in the paper title deeds that the Land Registry have no knowledge of?

 

[RogerS]

Just visually the pink garage rectangle seems to be a different shape - slightly squarer - than the cut-out on the left-hand plan.

Could it be that when the other property's title was registered they just applied a standard "garage sized" rectangle which doesn't quite match the reality on the ground? If so then that seems like it ought to be simple enough, if potentially time-consuming, for the sellers to resolve.

I'd go along with that line of reasoning as well. Comparing the size of the garage with the scale 30m/60m on the RH image, it does correlate pretty closely to the size of the garage as stated on the estate agent particulars.

 

[RogerS]

Is it an actual conflict or just the potential for there to be one that is being flagged Roger?

If it’s the latter I wonder if it is simply because your title is not registered and is described in the paper title deeds that the Land Registry have no knowledge of?

I understand that the Search result highlights a real conflict.

We had a long discussion about this last night. If it comes down to the fact that Title can't be registered then what does that mean in reality? If it is the size or location of the garage then we can live with Title not being registered.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Fingers crossed it turns out to be a minor issue Roger. I’m sure you’ll keep a foot on the neck of the lawyers to stop them dragging it out!

 

[RogerS]

Fingers crossed it turns out to be a minor issue Roger. I’m sure you’ll keep a foot on the neck of the lawyers to stop them dragging it out!

Too true. LOML made a very good point this morning namely why has this only arisen now. Shouldn't our solicitor have done this right at the start? Chances are that if he had done then there would have been a very high chance of us not proceeding. But too much invested now.

 

[RogerS]

Just in from the Land Registry. Stephen and I have hit the nail on the head.



This from my solicitor which I don't fully understand..the part in bold seems to me to say exactly the same as the next paragraph.

“Is it that the sales plan was prepared to try and match the neighbouring title and not have any part fall within title ST70853?

Or was it that the sales plan was prepared to reflect the boundaries on the ground as accurately as possible?

If it was that the sales plan was prepared to match the neighbouring title, what happens if it is redone to match the situation on the ground? Does it then reflect title plan ST70853 better and not overlap onto any part of the same? If so, then to me that seems to be the answer.

If it was that the sales plan was prepared to reflect the boundaries on the ground, then it seems that we have a very small sliver of the garage falling within ST70853 and I will have to take my clients’ instructions on that.”

The grey box is the actual size of the garage. So shifting it in any direction, a large part of it is overlapping the other registered Title. Knowing the vendor, he has lived there for 41 years. In that time the neighbouring property has undergone changes of use and ownership with now a very much absent owner. Our vendor has stated that the garage was there when they bought the place 41 years ago.

So the bottom line is that the owner can come along and ask us to remove it from his land. Had we known this at the outset then we would have walked. It is too late now. We have too much invested emotionally in this.

I think the answer is that the sales plan is adjusted to match the Registered Title and we drop our offer price. Significantly because it will have an impact on any future sale.

Or we simply don't bother to register it.

 

[duke]

Roger, do you know the approximate age of the garage?
And are you allowed to build another garage on the house property in case you lose use of the existing garage.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Roger, your solicitor may have already discussed this with you but if not you may want to ask about the legal principle of Adverse Possession.

I’m a bit rusty on it but basically if someone has made use and had control of a piece of land which is registered they can claim title. (It’s slightly longer for unregistered land). As the garage has presumably been locked the vendor has controlled the land.

That presumes that the garage is built on land that is not described in your title deed. If the land is described accurately in your title deed the owner of the neighbouring property has a problem when they come to sell so should be motivated to work with your vendor to correct the incorrectly registered title. Even if there is conflicting descriptions in the paper records the neighbour shares the problem. Your vendor could offer to pay their legal fees to change the title. (I’ve seen that done when selling repo’s)

It’s also an insurable risk. The vendor pays a single premium with the policy transferring to you on completion. Getting a view on the value of the property without the garage may be a useful step as you need to ensure that the cover would adequately cover your potential loss. Just accepting it and requiring the vendor to arrange insurance is probably the quickest way forward - but it only treats the symptom rather than the cause.

Apologies if you already know all that.

 

[RogerS]

Roger, your solicitor may have already discussed this with you but if not you may want to ask about the legal principle of Adverse Possession.

I’m a bit rusty on it but basically if someone has made use and had control of a piece of land which is registered they can claim title. (It’s slightly longer for unregistered land). As the garage has presumably been locked the vendor has controlled the land.

That presumes that the garage is built on land that is not described in your title deed. If the land is described accurately in your title deed the owner of the neighbouring property has a problem when they come to sell so should be motivated to work with your vendor to correct the incorrectly registered title. Even if there is conflicting descriptions in the paper records the neighbour shares the problem. Your vendor could offer to pay their legal fees to change the title. (I’ve seen that done when selling repo’s)

It’s also an insurable risk. The vendor pays a single premium with the policy transferring to you on completion. Getting a view on the value of the property without the garage may be a useful step as you need to ensure that the cover would adequately cover your potential loss. Just accepting it and requiring the vendor to arrange insurance is probably the quickest way forward - but it only treats the symptom rather than the cause.

Apologies if you already know all that.

I like your thinking but we've been there at the last place. It's very long-winded, very expensive and at the end of the day you are reliant on the Land Tribunal. Plus you've pissed off the owner of the neighbouring property....over whose land you have your access. There defintely be dragons.

LOML came up with a brilliant suggestion. We coudn't care less about a garage per se but storage, certainly. So we knock down the garage, put something back that fits the registered title. Something for storage. Not a workshop but I don't want/need that. Sorted. No legal shenanigans. Happy co-existence with the 'non-resident possily money laundering' neighbour.

And re-negotiate the price. The question is ....by how much ?

 

[RogerS]

Roger, do you know the approximate age of the garage?
And are you allowed to build another garage on the house property in case you lose use of the existing garage.

According to the vendor 'it was there when we bought it'.

No land or need to build a garage elsewhere. Storage, yes.

 

[Lons]

............................And re-negotiate the price. The question is ....by how much ?

Cost of delolition and removal of debris plus rebuild and an addition for inconvenience. Maybe ring around for a rough quote, or stick your finger in the air and come up with a starting amount you would be happy to negotiate from.

 

[spb]

And re-negotiate the price. The question is ....by how much ?

If it did become an issue, you have an idea what your solution would be. Work out the cost to do that, plus a bit for inconvenience. Ask the seller to buy an indemnity policy to cover the risk of the neighbour trying to enforce their registered title, which would transfer to you and any subsequent buyer. Then you get to keep the larger garage for now, but know you're covered if someone does try to make it an issue.

...unless the seller can somehow sort out the conflict and get the neighbouring title updated before exchange, of course.

 

[RogerS]

If it did become an issue, you have an idea what your solution would be. Work out the cost to do that, plus a bit for inconvenience. Ask the seller to buy an indemnity policy to cover the risk of the neighbour trying to enforce their registered title, which would transfer to you and any subsequent buyer. Then you get to keep the larger garage for now, but know you're covered if someone does try to make it an issue.

...unless the seller can somehow sort out the conflict and get the neighbouring title updated before exchange, of course.

The indemnity policy won't work. They have offered one but the vendor's solicitors appear to have missed one of the clauses in the Adverse Possession Indemnity policy. Specifically the clause that states …...

" Please note that policy cover will also be on the basis that no attempt will be made to register title to the defective land at the Land Registry and/or submit an application to rectify the title to the land (if registered)”

and so if they or we were to try to register the defective land - ie where the garage is - then that would render the Indemnity Policy null and void thus removing any protection that it provided. And they are proposing exactly that.

The other stupidity is that they have shown us and our solicitor the map details of what they propose to use when applying for Title Registration. It is exactly what our solicitor provided for the Index Map Search. The one that the Land Registry turned down.

We've told them either accept our proposal and a reduction in purchase price or we walk. And contracts were expected to exchange on Monday. hey ho...ain't house-buying fun.

We don't want to buy a property with a defective Title. This excellent article explains why

Title defects – proceed with caution

It is important to be forward thinking when title defects are discovered on property that you own. There are often a number of options when considering how to deal with title defects. But what can seem like an easy solution at the time might in fact bring about larger problems down the line due...

www.hempsons.co.uk

 

[AJB Temple]

Well, at least you can find somewhere with stairs you can get the furniture up.....

 

[RogerS]

Well, at least you can find somewhere with stairs you can get the furniture up.....

They've agreed to our proposal. We've renegotiated the price. Title Plan will now be the 'correct' one. Our solicitor still doesn't 'get it' though ...LOL. He keeps suggesting we go down the Indemnity Insurance ...that won't help because it's simply kicking the can down the lane to when we want to sell. Our approach gives us a properly registered title and nothing defective about it